Episode 476 – News, DGUs, and an interview with Kat Ainsworth and Belle about domestic violence

Please visit show sponsor Ammo.com

1- Introduction

Paul – Welcome to the polite society podcast powered by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Sunday, December 23rd, 2018, I’m Paul Lathrop

John:  I’m John Richardson and we’ll talk about  the recently released rule banning bumpstocks..

Grant: I’m Grant Gallagher and in our DGU segment, we’ll talk about a website that tries to turn attackers into martyrs

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and and on tonight’s show we will talk with Kat Ainsworth about Domestic Violence…so climb aboard

Grant: strap in

John: and hang on!

Paul:  episode 476 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.

Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)

John – I plan to do some deer hunting after Christmas and have been getting my gear ready. I’m thinking I’ll use my 6.8 SPC II AR to prove that you can hunt with an AR-15. I might even put my suppressor on it. Other than that, I was busy finishing up work for the year. I would like to remind our listeners that if they want me to check out any products or companies at the SHOT Show they need to email me soon at john@politicsandguns.com. I’ll do my best to check them out.


Grant – I *finally* got my initial set of classes at Garden State Shooting Center laid out for the year. We’ll be running mostly from the USCCA curriculum, including the Instructor class, but interspersed with NRA Basic Pistol and Rifle to support NRA Instructor candidates, too.

Paul/Susan –

Promo about upcoming training classes here.

Grant – just the same as last Episode. We are going to be offering a mix of USCCA and NRA classes, including Instructor classes for both organizations, in handgun, rifle and home defense. We also have National Train a Teacher Day on July 20th. So if any of that sounds interesting, email me on Grant-at-scotshot-dot-com for more details

PATCHES – Yes, we still have PSP patches. Price is $8 ppd. Send PayPal to john@politicsandguns.com or an email to that address if you want to pay by check. Proceeds go to the Second Amendment Foundation.

Gary- PogoShirt.com

Ask listeners to listen to other shows on the network, name at least 2 shows.


2- News

POLITE SOCIETY NEWS, December 23rd 2018

Hi everyone. Please remember to send your comments on the news to “onair@politicsandguns.com”




Effective Wednesday, December 26th  President Trump’s promise that Bump Stocks will be banned, goes into effect. You have until March 26, 2019 to dispose of them.

This was achieved by having the ATF change the definition of a machine gun from a gun that fires continuously from one pull of the trigger, to include the bump stock device that allows continuous fire to be initiated from one pull of the trigger.

The new rule, which is in the show notes,  also proposes a new definition of “automatically”, in relation to firing a gun.

The new rule claims to resolve an inherent contradiction between original bump stock devices (that were considered illegal at the time) which used springs to transmit the recoil back to the trigger of a semi-automatic rifle, with the current versions, which operate differently and were twice ruled legal by the ATF under the Obama administration.

The rule posits to clarify the “best” definition of “machine gun” under the 1934 act. In so doing, it determines that the spirit of the law was focused on continuous fire and so, bumpstocks become “machine guns”, because they permit continuous fire to be “initiated” by a single trigger squeeze. This function is now embraced by the term “automatic fire”, which is also re-defined under the rule.

However, the rule continues that this new definition of machine gun includes devices that allow “more than one shot” with a single pull, referring to bump stocks in this definition.

Recently, the ATF also said that it would no longer review firearm accessories unless they were attached to a firearm. Doubtless, this change is to accommodate reviewing accessories against the new definition of “machinegun”.

Ironically Senator Diane Feinstein has come out saying that this change in definition is out with the authority of the ATF, and that it should be returned to Congress for review. No doubt she wants to tweak it even more against the law-abiding citizen patriot gun owner.

Interestingly, Rolling Stone has brought forward the real danger about this ban – that it will ultimately lead to a ban on all semi-automatic rifles. They say, since a variety of devices and even skillful manipulation with one’s hands, can initiate “continuous fire” under the new definitions, that the real problem is the semi-auto rifle itself. Alert listeners will have noticed a shift in the mainstream media from the term “Assault Rifle” to “Semi-Automatic Rifle”.

It is clear that the path to a ban for any administration who wants it, now or in the future, is laid down in this new rule.

There is a very good discussion of this at “The Truth About Guns”. They fundamentally disagree with the new ATF definition and maintain that a semi-auto with a bump-stock still requires the trigger to be pulled once for each round fired, although this does take place more quickly. It’s a very muddy area. Is the machine gun about the “machine”, or the rate of fire? NRA believes it is more about rate of fire, according to their spokesperson Marion Hammer.

What do you think about this? Do you think ATF should have done this? Should a government agency, whose members are neither accountable to the public nor elected by them, have the power to re-write or re-purpose legislation originally written by Congress? Do you think that the President should have requested it? Contact us at: onair at politics and guns dot com.



John – I never thought I’d say this but I agree with Dianne Feinstein on this – it is the job of Congress and not that of the BATFE which is on dubious grounds. I applaud our primary sponsor the Firearms Policy Coalition for filing a lawsuit against this on the day it was announced. Their lawsuit even caught the attention of the Washington Post.



John – The problem is that if you are caught with it you will be charged with a felony.

John –




Hot on the heels of the ATF ruling, the commission promised by President Trump on school safety, has endorsed the so-called “Red Flag” gun confiscation laws as part of a package of recommendations in its report.

Quote: “The Commission endorses Extreme Risk Protection Order laws, which give authorities a temporary way to keep those who threaten society from possessing or purchasing firearms.”

The President directed the Commission to make a comprehensive assessment of the issue of school violence and to make policy recommendations to keep our schools safe.

The Commission also said that it recommended:

* “No Notoriety” principles, which call on media coverage to not use names or photos of killers.

* “Schools and communities must take a comprehensive approach to making sure school campuses are safe places for learning and growth.”

* “The Commission’s report emphasizes the importance of improving access to mental health services as a vital means of reducing school violence.”

The Commissions report runs to 180 pages and you can get it from the link in the show notes.

Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach said: “Anti-gun interest groups and politicians have used the Parkland shooting to launch what, until recently, they regarded as a distant dream — a wave of state legislation authorizing the confiscation of firearms (ie, the red flag laws).”

As we have reported before, a number of states have enacted this legislation, that strips the law abiding of their due process rights until after their guns have been grabbed. The President’s apparent approval will only speed the process.

It appears that President Trump, is now on board with red flag laws, but he also emphasized the need for armed teachers, as we will discuss later.

The 2016 election result had so much hope for the law-abiding gun owning public. President Trump told the American public that the eight-year assault on the Second Amendment was over, it may be that a new four-year assault is just beginning.

What do you think? Is this the emergence of the anti-gun Democrat Trump we were warned about? Write to us at: onair at politics and guns dot com and let us know your opinion.



John – A case from VT recently





While the Whitehouse Commission’s report on school safety focused on watching for danger signs of stress and anxiety amongst students, and early reporting, in a “See something, Say something” way, The President continued to speak out for the role of volunteer armed teachers in defending against attacks such as Sandy Hook, and Parkland.

Trump remained focused on allowing willing, trained teachers to carry guns. He noted how quickly attacks can unfold, adding that the speed at which they happen makes it “critical to have armed personnel available at a moment’s notice.”

He added, “These are people, teachers in many cases, that are the highest trained that you can get. People that are natural to firearms. People that know how to handle them. People that have great experience, and on top of the experience, have taken courses and they are right on the site. This is critical to the hardening of our schools against an attack.”

Trump made similar remarks in the wake of the February 14, 2018, Parkland high school attack, noting that first responders are “5 to 8 minutes” away when a shooting occurs but armed teachers can be there “immediately.”

At that time he stressed that he was not talking about forcing teachers to be armed. Rather, he wants to be sure that teachers who want to be armed, can be; that they can get the training necessary to carry a gun on campus and protect themselves and their students from attackers. This broadly concurs with one of the recommendations from the report of the Parkland mass murder that we have previously reported on.

In separate remarks, Debbie Wasserman Shultz of Broward County and the DNC, said “we stand against arming teachers”, so she clearly is in support of making it easy for people to murder children in schools.



John – We have reported the success of FASTER with Rob and with Laura Carno in past episodes.





Following the Parkland high school mass murder, 15 students who survived brought suit against the school district and Broward County Sheriff office, arguing that they failed to protect them from the murderer, despite many warnings of his general behavior and specific threats to shoot students in schools.

US District Court Judge Beth Bloom ruled that the students would have to be in the “custody” of the school for a duty to protect to be in existence. Since this was not the case, neither the school district, nor the Sheriff’s department had any such obligation.

She ruled:

“there is no constitutional duty to protect students from harm inflicted by third parties,” saying that, “students — unlike mental patients and prison inmates — are not in a custodial relationship with the state. Absent that type of restraint, there can be no concomitant duty to provide for the student’s safety and general well-being,” the ruling said.

Ironically in a separate ruling, a Broward County Judge refused to dismiss suit brought against Deputy Sheriff Peterson, by the parents of one of the students murdered at the school. You’ll remember that Deputy Peterson was vilified for refusing to enter the school to confront the murderer.

Judge Patti Henning rejected the argument of Peterson’s lawyer that he had “no legal duty” to protect the students. She found that Peterson had a duty to the school community as someone whose job was security and who had an “obligation to act reasonably” under the circumstances of the shooting.

She also found Peterson was not protected from the lawsuit by “sovereign immunity,” a legal doctrine that shields public employees from legal action based on their official conduct.

So what is your consensus, listeners? Do schools have an obligation to protect students when they are in school? Do individual staff bear that responsibility when on duty? Write to us at: onair at politics and guns dot com




John – I don’t think the Judge Bloom in the Fed case had a choice as the Supreme Ct ruled back in 2005 in Warren v. DC that the police have no duty to defend any individual only the public in general.



Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest Kat Ainsworth, talking about the sensitive topic of domestic violence.


3- Interview 1 – Kat Ainsworth

Interview 2 – Kat Ainsworth, continued

Paul – DGUs  (at beginning) These discussions are NOT legal advice. Some of us are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive Gun Use segment is intended as information, NOT as training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.

GRANT – Our DGU writer Dana has been reporting Defensive Gun Uses for the Polite Society Podcast for about 2 years. One thing he noticed a while ago was the posting of the criminals who are the recipients of the defensive gun use into sites like GunMemorial.com.  This site purports to be a memorial site for the victims of “gun violence”.

Recently, though, on December 11th, the site RallyForOurRights.com posted a blog entry about a DGU we covered earlier in 2018.  This DGU involved a road rage incident in Milton, Washington along I-5. The 23-year-old female motorcyclist, Aubrey Bowlin (the victim in this case), did something to irritate a 60 year-old driver.  The man, Bruce Jones, boxed Bowlin in and then exited his vehicle and physically attacked her while she was still sitting on her motorcycle. He pounded her head into the traffic barrier, hit her and shook her like “a dog with a toy in its mouth.”  He tried to violently rip her helmet off and was choking her with the chin strap. Fearing death would be the outcome, she shot this piece of garbage once in the chest which was all it took to take him off of the threat list for others.

Bowlin was a legal concealed pistol carrier.  She called 911 after ending the threat and waited at the scene until law enforcement and other first responders arrived.  She did everything right and no charges were filed. Pierce County Sheriff’s department exonerated her as this was a clear case of self-defense.

Rally for Our Rights found that this low life had been memorialized on the National Gun Violence site.  He even had 90 candles lit for him. Following the publication of the column, on December 16th, the Gun Memorial site quietly removed the posting for this perpetrator after receiving a deluge of backlash following the posting.  The Rally for Our Rights has found thousands of others posted and will be exposing some of the worst soon.

The Gun Memorial site is backed by an anti-Second Amendment group which is trying to turn the lawful use of a firearm for defense into a crime.  They do this by labeling every one of their postings as a homicide. Homicide is an all-encompassing term. It can be divided into many sub-categories.  Murder, manslaughter, killing in war, euthanasia, capital punishment and justifiable homicide. It is that last category that we focus on during our Defensive Gun Use segment.  Justifiable homicide or legal self-defense encompasses 5 parts as Andrew Branca has much more eloquently written about in his best seller.

As you may have noticed, Dana has quit naming the thugs who are the recipient of self-defensive gun uses.  Just like many have stopped using the names of the fame seeking murders who use the gun free zone to fame and glory in their own sick minds, he stopped naming names as well.

Some of the past DGU’s which he found include the July 4, 2017 self-defense shooting in Kentucky of Jody Sevier who went to an ex-girlfriend’s home and confronted the man who also lived in the house, who subsequently was forced to defend  himself. An emergency order of protection had been issued but not yet served at the time. Dana found a listing for him in the site while researching the DGU.

In Episode 416, he wrote about a motel landlord who defended himself against a knife attack while talking to 911.  Dana wrote that Michael Auvil had been the knife wielding attacker. Auvil is listed in the site with 40 candles.

In Episode 422 we talked about Servando Santos, who had assaulted an elderly lady leaving her in the hospital in critical condition in Dauphin County, PA before forcing his way into a nearby home.  The homeowner was a POGO practitioner and fired several shots at the Santos after he disregarded warnings that the homeowner was armed. One shot hit him in the stomach. He was found in the site alo.

This is just a sampling of the ones Dana has found but he has seen the listings in Internet search results time and time again.  Once again, the gun control lobby seeks to use anything they can to leverage against the defenders of our Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms.  After the November Thousand Oaks bar shooting, this same group claimed 307 mass shootings in the United States in 2018. Rally for Our Rights looked at their list and applied the Congressional Research Service definition of “The incident takes place in a public area involving four or more deaths—not including the gunman, the shooter selects victims indiscriminately, the violence in these incidents are not a means to an end.”  After sorting the list from low to high for deaths, the first 11 pages were thrown out because the deaths resulting were 0 to 3. Of the 287 incidents tossed out, 155 resulted in zero deaths. Of the 20 remaining, most were family or domestic violence related. 6 were left. Marjorie Stoneman High School, Antioch, Tennessee Waffle House, Sante Fe, Texas High School, Anapolis, Maryland Capital Gazette, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Tree of Life Synagogue and Thousand Oaks, California Borderline Bar and Grill are all that were left.  The only ones that are potentially not gun free zones are the Waffle House and the MAryland Gazette.

From this point forward, Dana and the Podcast will not be silent on any DGU which has ended up on this web site.  We will continue with our policy of not naming the criminal who initiated the DGU but will state that they are on this site and include the link in the show notes.  If we pressure this site to remove any criminal who met their just rewards as a result of a lawful use of a firearm, then we will be putting less ammunition into the hands of those who wish to disarm us.


Paul –

And now on to some recent DGU’s.

John – Tulsa, Oklahoma

At 4 PM on Thursday, a clerk at the photo counter in a Tulsa Walgreens asked for some identification before handing over photographs to the 52-year-old man.  The man didn’t want to produce ID but instead he produced a gun, climbed over the counter, grabbed the photos and then climbed back over the counter.

The clerk picked up the phone to call 911 when the man returned to the counter and threatened him.

The clerk who is licensed to conceal carry then pulled his own gun and shot the aggressor multiple times.

Another Walgreens employee and a customer were struck by gunfire and hospitalized.  Both are expected to survive.

Walgreens’ surveillance video confirmed witness accounts of the dispute.  The employee was not injured and has not been arrested at this time. Walgreens is cooperating with the investigation.


Paul – I hope the guy still has a

John – I know that they fired a pharmacist for defending himself in Michigan.

Gary- New Market, Alabama

At approximately 3 AM on Wednesday, 911 operators received two calls to report a shooting.  One of the callers was the victim of the shooting.

At the same time, a woman called 911 from a neighbors home to report she “had been held” and had shot a man.

First responders went to the home and found the man suffering from gunshot wounds to his wrist and upper torso.

The female caller and the man were in a “domestic relationship.” The shooting stemmed from a physical altercation between them after which she ran to the neighbor’s home.

The 49-year-old man died after being MedFlighted to the hospital.  The 32-year-old female was talking to the Criminal Investigation Division where she was interviewed and released.  She was then taken by a family member to a hospital for evaluation and treatment.

The 49-year-old alleged domestic abuser has appeared in the GunMemorial site just within days of the incident.


Grant- This shows how important it is to call the police – the first person who calls is always considered the “victim”

Paul – Missoula, Montana

Josef “Joe” Crepeau thought the commotion he heard from inside his house was his dog chasing his cat.  He then started hearing the volume of sirens increasing and a growing law enforcement presence around his home.

He opened his front door and learned that they were seeking the whereabouts of one or more individuals.  That threw the dog chasing cat theory out the window. He decided to determine that the cause of the noise inside his house was not the searched for individuals.

He is not a POGO practitioner so he grabbed is 9mm Beretta and started on the top floor.  He reminded himself of training protocols and worked his way down the house. In the basement, he saw an open door to the outside and became more cautious.

When speaking to the Missoulian newspaper at his office in Missoula College where he is a math professor, the next day Crepeau joked that the state of affairs in the basement might have served as a deterrent. “I was hoping that he took one look at that hell hole of a basement and ran away.”

When he looked in the furnace room, he saw the intruder crouched down and at this point, he finally chambered a round.  At least he had a magazine in the gun.

The intruder was clearly in distress. He was panting and sweating and just shaking, he said.  He believed the intruder heard him rack the slide. He became very cooperative very quickly.

Crepeau ordered the man to stand up, put his hands up and keep them up.  Eventually he came forward slowly. He turned the intruder to make sure he was in front of him, lowered his weapon and marched him up the stairs.

At one point the intruder started talking but Crepeau “ordered him to keep his mouth closed” with the help of some colorful language.

Outside he alerted law enforcement and turned the man over to them.  Crepeau put down his firearm and got on the ground because he knew he would be handcuffed as part of procedure.  Once he was verified as the property owner, he was released.

Creapeau said he was grateful for law enforcement and he stressed the importance of “training, training, training,” in the use of firearms.  He said at no point was his finger on the trigger.

“The Second Amendment is too precious to screw around with willy-nilly,” Crepeau said. As is said in the Spiderman comics, “With great power comes great responsibility.”



Grant – wow – this guy is a cat and has only 2 lives left. He is unbelievably lucky

We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.


6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close

Listener e-mail discussion/recipe

Voice mail 1

Voice mail 2

John – I had to petition to get my mother’s name off the voter rolls two years after she passed away.  When I was a senior I voted absentee from London.

Voice mail 3

Email 1

John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money.

John – I have had a number of posts up since our last show. Of course, I did cover the issuance of the Final Rule banning bumpstocks in multiple posts. I even went so far as to say Dianne Feinstein was correct in her criticism of the Rule. My most recent post covers a lawsuit filed by FPC and SAF among others against California. It involves two men who had their rights including firearm rights restored by other states. That said, California refuses to recognize the restoration of their firearms rights and has even confiscated one man’s firearms collection. The case is Linton v. Becerra and I think it has a good chance of winning.

That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.

PAUL: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank Kat Ainsworth for joining us today. So for Amy, Tracy, Belle, Dana, Douglas, Gary, Grant, John, Rachel, Rob and Susan:

(Paul, stop talking now)

Paul: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Grant: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.