Episode 457 – Training After Action Report


Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast powered by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Monday, July 30th, 2018, I’m Paul Lathrop

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we will talk about active shooter classes at the firearms academy of Seattle.

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll talk about armed teacher training in Ohio.

Tracy: I’m Tracy Thronburg, and tonight we’ll learn why the 9th circuit court of appeals is in the news again!

Rachel: I’m Rachel Malone, and we’ll talk about how we’re winning the fight against Red Flag in Texas.

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in one of our Defensive gun use stories, a woman stopped an intruder at her front door. So climb aboard,

Rachel: strap in

John : and hang on!

Paul:  episode 457 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.

Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)

Rob- I went to a three day training class for armed school staff. These teachers become very serious when it comes to protecting their kids. Can you make the first shot of the day? I interviewed with Craig DeLuz of the Firearms Policy Coalition. I talked with Bill Frady on his Lock and Load Radio program.

John – I must apologize to our listeners for missing the last podcast. My allergies were acting up and I don’t think anyone wanted to listen to me constantly snorting and sniffling. Since the last podcast, I was on the Firearms Chat Podcast with Bill Chackes and Greg Hutton to discuss the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh to replace Justice Kennedy on the SCOTUS. I also spent time this weekend clearing brush on land I have hopes of hunting this fall. I did see one deer as I approached the property and my trail cam has caught more pics of deer. Finally, I was asked today by SAF to be a speaker at the Gun Rights Policy Conference.


Tracy – In the week since our last podcast, I’ve done nothing except carry every day!

Rachel – Last Tuesday was a very satisfying day — and a big win for gun rights. We’ll talk about it more in the news segment, but as a personal observation: folks, it DOES make a difference when our people show up in overwhelming numbers. Last week, all it took was 34 of our people showing up to give us a majority. 75% of the witnesses opposed Red Flag. Takeaway: show up to committee hearings if at all possible. In other news: I booked my travel for GRPC. So Chicago, here I come.


PATCHES: We still have some PSP patches left. They are $10 for 1 or $18 for two with all proceeds going to the Second Amendment Foundation. You can send PayPal to john@politicsandguns.com or, if you want to send a check, send me an email at the address and I’ll tell you where to mail it.

Promo about upcoming training classes here.

Ask listeners to listen to other shows on the network, name at least 2 shows.


2- News



Listeners.. last week we told you how a decision from the 9th Circuit Court had kept alive litigation to declare California’s 10-round magazine bill unlawful. Well this week, the same court has come out with a decision that the open carry of defensive firearms in public is protected by the Constitution.

The case originates in Hawaii, where it is extremely difficult (that is, functionally impossible), to obtain a CCW permit. Plaintiff George Young was denied a permit twice and so brought suit, arguing that if Hawaii would not allow concealed carry, then under Heller it should allow open carry. The District Court disagreed, determining that the denial did not infringe Mr Young’s 2nd Amendment rights.

Mr Young persevered, and early last week, a 9th Circuit panel determined that the Second Amendment  “..does protect a right to carry a firearm in public for self defense.”. The Court also stated that limiting such rights to retired police officers, or security professionals such as security guards, did “..violate the core of the Second Amendment.”

The ruling was very strong in its support of the right to protect oneself with firearms in the general public. This is the sixth US Circuit Court to interpret the Second Amendment in this way. The Court observed that, since it had already determined that the 2nd Amendment did not protect the right to carry a concealed firearm, there was no question that, under Heller, the Court must decide that open carry *was* protected.

Not surprisingly, 2A advocates have been extremely excited about this ruling, but it’s important to remember that it will almost certainly be appealed for a hearing of the entire court. The decision there will determine whether the case ends before the Supreme Court.



John – We were very lucky. Mr Young represented himself in most of the proceedings. He had help in the Appeals process. If like a case in Tennessee, it could have gone very wrong.


Rob- we drew two good judges. Does Hawaii want to lose small, or appeal and lose big?

John – It might not be up to Hawaii. One of the 9th C. judges could request the en banc hearing.



California is very aggressive in denying its citizens their second amendment rights. Most recently, they required that if Californians wished to retain their so-called “assault weapons”, then they had to register them, and the state set up a website for them to do this. However, the whole process has been a disaster, so much so that the Second Amendment Foundation is suing the state for requiring the population to register their firearms while failing to provide a functioning means to do so.

By the set deadline, 6,213 individuals successfully registered 12,519 firearms. Over a thousand people had their registration attempts rejected. A staggering fifty-two thousand applications were not processed by the deadline and technically, that’s fifty-two thousand felons.

However, that’s only the tip of the iceberg. According to the Firearms Policy Coalition, data on gun sales from state records show that there were an estimated one-point-three million rifles sold in California that would meet registration requirements. In other words, only three-point-six percent of firearms owners even attempted to register their rifles and the ones successfully registered represent a piffling zero-point-seven percent.

Brandon Combs, president of Firearms Policy Coalition, said, “In 2016 I predicted mass noncompliance with these laws and that seems to be what happened.”  He blamed the State for refusing to provide an education program to go with the new law, that would let gun owners know that the law had changed. He also noted that there was a well-publicized case of a man being arrested while attempting to comply and that this likely acted as a major disincentive.

There is little doubt that gun owners simply refused to comply with what they see as step too far by the legislature. This has previously been seen in New York and Connecticut.

It likely will not be long before the criminal cases, and counter lawsuits, begin.







Last week we talked about the settlement between Cody Wilson and SAF, and the Department of Justice, that has allowed the computer files encoding the 3-D printing of gun parts to go ahead.

As we expected, the anti-gunners were faster than a little greased piggy to go to court to stop it.

The Brady Campaign, the Bloomberg Redshirts and Gabby Giffords, jointly filed a 22-page motion for a temporary restraining order. They were strident in their criticism of the settlement agreement, saying, “Publication of these files on the internet will cause irreparable harm to the United States and its citizens…”. They claimed that the worldwide availability of untraceable and undetectable firearms would, “…threaten the security of the United States..”, adding.. “once released, the damage cannot be undone.”

However, US District Court Judge Robert Pitman disagreed, saying that the plaintiffs did not have standing to bring a motion against the Cody Wilson settlement, writing, “..it is ordered that (the motion) is denied.”

Alan Gottlieb said that the gun prohibition lobby “..threw everything at us to overturn our huge First and Second Amendment  win, and they lost. This is a great day for Freedom.”

This motion was one of many coming attempts to stop publication of these files. The New Jersey Attorney General has sent Wilson and his company, Defense Distributed, a “Cease and Desist” letter. and more than 40 small groups are preparing their own motions. Manhattan District Attorney argued that plastic guns could easily be smuggled onto airplanes and into concerts. Being untraceable, they would undermine the work of law enforcement.”

Listeners, what do you think? Email us at “onair@politicsandguns.com”


Rob- Doesn’t the Opera browser have a Virtual Private Network capability so you can download files.

Paul- These aren’t “undetectable” in my opinion you have to have ammunition to fire these. And there is no ammunition made out of plastic

John – How many of us have the files for the Liberator pistol.?



John- It was reported late this afternoon that nine states have filed suit in Washington State against the Trump Administration’s decision to settle with SAF, Cody Wilson, and Def. Distributed. I don’t think they have a leg to stand on as this is an area in which the President has power, can delegate that power as did Obama, and that Federal law is supreme.

Rob- the street price is usually lower than the over the counter price.



We have been reporting on the so-called Red Flag laws that are popping up like demonic little gophers in statehouses around the country, following the Parkland atrocity.

Two weeks ago, we reported on the proposals to introduce such a law in Texas. Now, we are pleased to be able to tell you that the chances for such a law are diminishing quickly.

Following some well-organized grass-roots activism from our own Rachel Malone, governor Abbott sees that opinion is “coalescing” against the introduction of such a bill, originally proposed as part of a new School security initiative. The governor asked the Legislature to consider such a law, but it has drawn unfavorable comments from 2A advocates. Even the Lieutenant Governor said that he has “never supported” such a law, and suggested it would be “dead on arrival” on the senate floor.

The concept drew sharp criticism from conservative and firearm advocacy groups. Nearly 50 people testified at the Senate Select Committee on Violence in Schools and School Security. It turns out that 75% of the witnesses who offered a recommendation were AGAINST the Red Flag proposal. Most of them cited opposition because the proposals would force a person to defend himself in a court of law – and possibly have his firearms confiscated — without even probable cause of a crime having been committed.

This united opposition doubtlessly was in the Governor’s mind when he said recently that his comment that the legislature consider a Red Flag law did not represent a personal commitment to it.

Never doubt the value of your opinion. Never think your vote won’t matter. Support your local gun rights groups, and never forget: they *are* coming for your guns.



Rachel: I’d like to note a few things. First, ALL of the gun groups showed up in opposition to Red Flag. Second, we’ve seen the Lt. Gov. change opinions very quickly when there was a huge uprising of gun rights voices. Third, don’t expect that this is the end of the matter – these things slip in in slimy ways in other bills and under other names. I’ll be watching.



Listeners, we all know how the Left raised David Hogg and others to represent gun control in the wake of the Parkland atrocity. Well, this week, a possible new voice on the Conservative side has emerged, too.

Kyle Kashuv spoke out against the usual calls for gun control after the murders, against the general trend of his classmates and the media. He reported being bullied and questioned by the police after visiting a gun range. Appearing on “Face the Nation”, he said, “As Americans we all have different points of view, and it’s important to represent them all equally.”

Now, he is credited with playing a major role in the success of the recent “Turning Point USA” high school leadership summit. The event was held in Washington DC, and attracted over 800 students from all over the country. The organizer, Charlie Kirk, credits much of the success to Kyle.

Kirk said that Kyle booked speakers, organized rooms, contacted media and played a role in almost every part of organizing the event. Last year, the conference drew 150 attendees and Kirk credits the huge increase to Kyle’s efforts at promoting the event on social media. Kirk said that Kyle “..worked his ass off.”

Heavy duty speakers such as the Attorney General, the secretary of State for Education and the Secretary to the United Nations spoke, as did members of the First Family, and Kyle introduced them all. Kyle only said that, “..it’s great to see all these kids here because they are the leaders on their campuses. These are the kids who are going to ..push conservative values.”

However, his true role was revealed when he himself took the stage and he received an enormous ovation, and cries of “USA, USA” Organizer Kirk said “He brought this to the next level. He deserves all the credit. Putting together these kinds of speakers is unbelievable.”

Listeners, why not tell us about rising young leaders in your community, and support their events with a few hours of your time? You can email us at  onair@politicsandguns.com



Paul – It’s great to see this, unfortunately I first heard of this today.


John – Gary’s correct. Moreover, social media like FB and Twitter are actively conspiring against progun voices.


Gun Quotes-

The only way to make sure your gun will always be there when you need it is to always carry it.  Massad Ayoob

Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest (Name).


3-  Rob FASTER level II

Who thinks guns in school is a good idea? Sro trainers, sheriffs, some SWAT cops, school staff.

Can you make the first shot of the day? (you often think you’re prepared, but then find out you should have practiced more) (the teacher’s rose to the occasion, including re-qualifying on the ohio police training test)

Hand to hand

More TCCC- trauma care

36 scenarios, force on force and shoot houses, (I missed and feel sick.)

Some of these teacher developed their own local training courses. They do walk throughs of their facility, and they train with the local deputies.

Advanced techniques. (rescue, retention)

4- Paul- Active Shooter Interdiction

Rob- Paul, did you learn a lot as an observer in these scenarios?

5- DGUs  (at beginning) These discussions are NOT legal advice. Some of us are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive Gun Use segment is intended as information, NOT as training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.

Gary – St Pauls, North Carolina

On a recent afternoon, a woman was opening her shed when she found a career criminal and drug addict hiding in her storage building.  The thug lunged at her in an aggressive manner and she shot him multiple times in response. None of the wounds were life-threatening.

A year earlier the suspect was arrested and charged with felony possession of burglar tools and misdemeanor possession of drug paraphernalia.  The same day he was charged with felony possession of a stolen vehicle as well as a second charge of drug paraphernalia and possession of .5 to 1.5 ounces of marijuana.

The investigation into the shooting is ongoing and no charges have been filed.


Rachel- sounds like she had her gun in the safest place: on her person — even while on her own property.

John – Robeson County is one of the most violent in North Carolina. We’ve had DGUs from there before.

Paul – a successful point shooting

John – Lake Mary, Florida

According to the Seminole County Sheriff’s office, shortly after 2 AM on a Sunday a 35-year-old man and 26-year-old man were involved in an altercation in the parking lot of the Colonial Town Park shopping center.  The older man pulled a handgun and fired one round. The younger man retrieved a handgun of his own and fired multiple rounds. He struck the elder man and that man was pronounced dead later.

Investigators determined that the one round fired by the deceased missed his adversary but did hit a bystander across the parking lot.  The 28-year-old died later that night.

The younger combatant has been determined to have acted in self-defense and no charges have been filed.

He may have to address the death of the bystander in a civil trial.


Paul – I cannot stress how important it is to stay out of altercations of any type if you are armed.
John – I’m not sure what was the source of the altercation.

Tracy- Boonville, Missouri

When the 26-year-old criminal entered the Eagle Stop convenience store and acted suspiciously, he caught the attention of a customer.  When the thug approached the cash register and demanded money, the customer produced a firearm and held him at gunpoint until law enforcement arrived.

A woman who claimed the employee behind the counter was her daughter praised the customer for his actions and another replied to the woman’s Facebook post that the customer was her grandfather who went to get his gun when he thought something wasn’t right.  The man lives near the store.

It might be assumed that the grandfather was not licensed to carry concealed but in Missouri, open carry is legal so he could bring the firearm back with him.

The criminal has been charged with first degree attempted robbery, armed criminal action, exhibiting a weapon and receiving stolen property.


Rachel- And they say it gets too confusing when civilians pull out their guns? Here’s proof they’re wrong.


Rob- Was there a lethal threat? Would you shoot the robber if he got up and ran away?

John- One thing to note – Missouri is a constitutional carry state for both open and concealed carry.

Paul Dayton, Ohio

A man who had witnessed another attempted burglary last April had a case of déjà vu.  At the time, he didn’t know what to do, or how much time he had, so he recorded them on his phone and gave it to police.

This time, when he thought it was the same three people attempting to rob the same store, he went further.

After grabbing his pistol, he ran across the street and told the female getaway driver and male lookout to get on the ground.  When the male in the store came out and got in the passenger side of the car and then slid to the drivers seat.

He yelled at him to get out of the car which he eventually did and sat down.

He held them at gunpoint until police arrived.  When they demanded he put the gun down, he did. One of the males used that to flee the scene.  K9 units were not able to locate him.

The juvenile male suspect was taken to a juvenile justice center and the adult female was arrested and charged with breaking and entering.

This was the third break-in attempt of the year.

It was unknown if the third suspect was located or what, if anything, was taken from the store.


Rachel- Texas law allows for defense of property more so than other states. Be aware of your law. Know that legal justification does not equal moral justification. Also: this was a female “bad guy” – would you hesitate?



We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.


6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close

Listener e-mail discussion

Wow, I can’t believe it’s been a year since Rachel left for the RPT job. I wish her great success working with GOA going forward.

Paul, I’ve included a link with information about measuring for a bra – you can figure out if you really need to move up a size.

Regarding the discussion of XD/XDM and their grip safety, that’s a feature that led me to purchase an XD as my first handgun. Since then, my confidence in me is greater and I don’t find that to be a necessity, but I also don’t find it any kind of a liability. As Matt mentioned in the email, being able to hold your hand off the grip safety when holstering is good, but still doesn’t beat just carefully holstering, regardless of the gun. What I don’t want on a defensive gun is a thumb safety, a switch you have to consciously (or unconsciously) deactivate to make the gun work. I think that would provide more opportunity to fumble it than a grip safety ever could.

And Paul – you’ve not had a 911? You’ve missed one of life’s great pleasures, scooting down the Authobahn with your butt just a couple inches above the pavement.


Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?

Rob- I will post several articles about armed school staff. I asked the best sources I could find if teachers should be armed to protect our students. Their answer was clear.

My articles are up at Clash Daily, at Ammoland and at my blog, slow facts dot wordpress dot com.  John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money.

In the news section, we reported that the efforts by gun control groups to stop Defense Distributed from posting their files on the Internet failed. Yesterday, Defense Distributed and SAF filed suit in Federal Court in Austin against the Atty Gen of NJ and the City Atty of LA for their threats to suppress the posting of these files in NJ and LA. The suit contends rightly that NJ and LA are treading on the 1st and 2nd Amendments, that Federal law is supreme in interstate commerce and export control law, and that the defendants are engaging in tortious interference. I anticipate other power-hungry politicians will be added to this lawsuit in the coming days. The reason these anti-gun politicians are fighting Cody Wilson so strongly is because they realize it is the death knell of gun control when anyone can make their own firearm.

That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.



Facebook listeners group

Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  So for Tracy, Belle, Dana, Douglas, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, Grant and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking now)

Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Rachel: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.