Episode 400 – 5 Years and Counting!

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/400.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- News Segment 

3- Interview Segment 1: Guest Massad Ayoob (several segments, if you would like to follow in order click from top to bottom)

5- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:

1- Introduction

Paul: Welcome to episode 400 of the polite society podcast sponsored by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Wednesday, February 1st, 2017 I’m Paul Lathrop.

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we will talk with Massad Ayoob and Gail Pepin about self-defense in the age of travel.

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll talk about another failed attempt by Bloomberg to impose background checks.

Rachel: I’m Rachel Malone, and we’re doing our 400th episode live on the Lock and Load Radio Show with Bill Frady.

Back Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in one of our DGU’s, a concealed carrier had to act when a robber put a gun in his girlfriend’s face… so climb aboard

Rachel: strap in

John : and hang on!

Paul:  episode 400 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob-  Rain, heat, cold.. Carried every day, in the office and in the field.  I really like my Alien Gear OWB holster.  That might change.  I bought larger pants so I can carry IWB comfortably.


John – I didn’t think I’ve have much gun news this week especially since most of it was spent with work and a dental appointment to get a crown for one of my teeth. Was I ever wrong. My dentist and I always chat about guns now that I know he is a gunny. We share a love for revolvers. Out of the blue he says, “I have a Ruger Redhawk in .44 Magnum. Would you like to try it out?” I’m thinking he means to meet him at the range sometime. He leaves the room and then comes back with the revolver. He set it on the counter and it was then understood it was going home with me for a try-out until my permanent crown arrives in a month.  I always thought I had a good dentist. Now I think I have the world’s best dentist!


Rob- That is precisely the legal activity that mandatory background checks make illegal.


Rachel – run n gun in Pawnee, OK, i can’t remember what else i did, look at my facebook page because it knows.  Videos here- https://www.facebook.com/rachel.malone.TX



Rob- Flat on your back.


Promo about upcoming training classes here.

Rachel- MAG20 Range in Austin Feb 11 and 12!

(June 24, 25th 2017.  Beyond Concealed Carry Enhanced.  9am -5pm both days. Richmond, IL)

(August 10-13, 2017. MAG-40. Sioux Falls, SD)

(August 26 & 27, 2017. Beyond Concealed Carry Enhanced. Sioux Falls, SD)




7.2000 to 7.2830


Neil Gorsuch-

HR38- This reciprocity bill would be a huge step forward for American gun owners, particularly those who travel.  We recognize marriage licenses, so it would be step forward to recognize firearms licenses as well.


2- News 1- Another Failed Attempt to Impose Universal Background Checks

Rob- In November, the voters in Nevada drank the Bloomberg Kool-Aid by passing a Universal Background check scheme.  The problem is that the ballot measure contained language making it unenforceable under existing state law.


The Demanding Mommies also set their sights on Missoula, Montana to carry out their nefarious plans.  Councilman Bryan von Lossberg filed a universal background check ordinance in 2015 at the behest of the anti-rights group.  He said, “The point was to save lives.”  The ordinance was passed in 2016 despite thousands of emails sent to the Mayor and City Council from pro-rights individuals.


Fortunately, Austin Knudsen, the Speaker of the Montana House, stepped in.  He sought an opinion from the state’s Attorney General, Tim Fox, regarding this ordinance.  It was basically a legal slam dunk since Montana’s preemption statute prohibits such regulation at the local level.  Perhaps Mr. von Lossberg should have listened a year ago when attorney general Fox warned that the ordinance, “likely violates our constitutional right to keep and bear arms.”


Another twist to this story centers around alleged legal advice provided to the City Council.  The Montana Shooting Sports Association filed a complaint with the Montana Office of Disciplinary Counsel.  They claim that an attorney in New York City provided legal advice on this matter without being licensed to practice in the state.  Perhaps this attorney will now seek national reciprocity of law licenses!



Rob- So far the Bloomberg’s been able to buy legislation half the time.  To him it is only money.

Paul – We talked with Sean Maloney last episode and he said that New Mexico was going through this as well

John – Missoula is considered a blue island in a generally red state. Hillary carried it. In the blog segment I have more on fighting back.


The 4th Amendment in the 4th Circuit

John – A recent en banc ruling by the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals appears to have implications applicable to both the Fourth and Second Amendments.  The facts of the case surround a traffic stop that took place in West Virginia.  The defendant in the case, Shaquille Robinson, was seen loading a pistol in the parking lot of a convenience store and putting the firearm in his pocket.  This parking lot is a well known hotbed of drug trafficking.  He then entered a car as a passenger.  An anonymous citizen tipped the police about this suspicious activity.  Mr. Robinson has a felony record.


The police stopped the car because of a seatbelt violation.  With knowledge that the passenger may be armed, the officer frisked him.  Mr. Robinson argued in the appeal that the officer violated his Fourth Amendment rights by searching him because it was possible that he may have been legally armed.  The ruling concluded by stating that Mr. Robinson’s Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures did not apply.  The police stated that they recognized Mr. Robinson as being a convicted felon and that his responses to their inquiries regarding his identity were vague.  Also, when asked, he did not clearly answer as to whether he was armed.


Attorney Andrew Branca penned a Legal Insurrection article regarding this decision.  He believes we should not be too worried about its ramifications.  It is of little doubt that the set of facts in this case are not representative of the vast majority of responsible gun owners.  As Mr. Branca states, “bad cases make bad law.”  Although he does not like the finding in this case, Branca does provide some assurances that this is not the end of the Fourth Amendment for concealed carriers.    


The Constitution protects citizens from unreasonable searches and seizures.  Most people would be suspicious of an individual handling a firearm in a convenience store parking lot known for drug activity.  A reasonable person being asked whether they were armed would provide the police with a definitive answer.  Anyone with a felony record would know that they were a prohibited person.  


It is of little doubt that an individual possessing a firearm is a “substantially greater prospective threat to the officer.”  Therefore, Branca’s view is that an officer securing your firearm during a stop and returning it to you after the transaction is completed is not an outrageous burden to bear.  In other words, this is not ideal, but it could be much worse.  It is not an overt assault on the Second Amendment.


Chris Eger’s article on guns.com points out that this decision creates a split with a Sixth Circuit decision.  In that case police went too far while searching an individual who was legally open carrying.  This disparity makes Supreme Court review a possibility.  Given the likely makeup of the Court in the near future, this may be just one on the list of cases whereby rights are reclaimed from an overbearing government.


Paul- this isn’t as big of a deal as it may seem.


John –

Gun Quotes-Rachel ? i want it

An ignorant mind is precisely not a spotless, empty vessel, but one that’s filled with the clutter of irrelevant or misleading life experiences, theories, facts, intuitions, strategies, algorithms, heuristics, metaphors, and hunches that regrettably have the look and feel of useful and accurate knowledge. Professor David Dunning


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest Massad Ayoob and Gail Pepin.



3- Interview 1- 7:07  Massad Ayoob

6.0600 to 6.1530

Two minutes–  We’ve been involved in instruction, training, practice, and competition.  Gail and Massad, given the students you’ve seen, which would be the best place to spend our next hour?


6.2000 to 6.2830

Rachel- What advice do you have for someone teaching their first MAG 20.


Not just what we teach, but why we teach it. Adult education – not military or police (not “because it’s a doctrine”. Tell them why we teach it this way. We’re aware of other techniques – here are their strengths and weaknesses. Our techniques: here are their strengths and weaknesses. Students’ job to adapt techniques to work with their body, hand shape, firearm, and needs. Given their physical skill set and everything they bring, we might need to suggest a different gun, but never become dogmatic about our way. Goal: adapt their needs and tools to their particular body shape and size, habituation (?) physical abilities. Keep mind open and remember as an instructor, you’re not an oracle. You’re a guide. Give them directions to get to the goal the best way for them and their equipment.


Competition helps us know, “Can I run this gun under pressure?”

Shooting a match is not a gunfight. Reverse corollary: a gunfight absolutely is a shooting match. The person with the most time and experience running a gun under pressure will most likely win.


Gary- Is there a benefit to competition above just firearms handling and familiarization?

Competition is not training.. But you ARE testing your skills, both against expert and the person next door.  You get to experience some pressure.  That helps your encounters on the street, because a gunfight is a shooting match.


6.3300 to 6.4230

John – to continue on about the pressure of competition and gunfights, we hope never to be in a gun fight. That said, should we seek out instructors who actually have been in a gun fight? Is there a benefit to that?


Useful but not the core thing. Mas has never been in a gun fight. Jim Cirillo and Charles Askins. Here’s what I learned in my gun fights but here is what others have learned in their’s. They say, “My experience has validated that.” Instructors who have been in gun fights do bring something to the table.


Professionals learned from every experience they could find.  We stand to benefit from hundreds of years and thousand and thousands of encounters.  No one person we ever gain enough experience compared to all of our experience.  Good instructors often describe what they learned from others, and say that their personal experience verified what they learned on their own.


Question for Gail, In competition in general when men compete there is a lot of chest thumping and  “I am God’s gift to XYZ” have you seen something different in women’s competition?


Gail Pepin- Women against other women are supportive.  Women against men, men don’t like to lose.  Gail came in high-female in both IDPA matches in Nevada and Florida.


6.4700 to 6.5720 You can find where Massad Ayoob and Gail Pepin will be at the Massad Ayoob Group website, http://massadayoobgroup.com/.


Mass and Gail will compete at The Pin Match in Michigan, June 9 through 16.  Come see them.

7.0600 to 7.1530

Question for either, having been around competition for a while are there trends in competition that you have seen develop over time?


Is there anything from competition that can be brought into our practice sessions that would be beneficial?


Paul-  I have done a LOT of dry fire practice, a good amount of live fire practice and a good amount of training, what should I look for when I go to my first competitive match?


USPSA – Run and gun.  You have to solve the problems on their own.

IDPA – concealed carry, draw from concealment, use cover

Glock shooting sports- You shoot the same match each time.  You are told how many cartridges you may load at each stage. Shoot from low ready.


Advice: Know the rules of the match before you go in. Go with the mindset of task instead of goal (not just “how will I finish”).  Focus on basics. Front sight, smooth roll on the trigger. Firm grip and strong stance are things you will have built prior to this skill test element. Above all, safety.


Each is a piece of the puzzle and gets you used to running your equipment effectively

Competitors, when in a gunfight, tend to do very well since they can reflexively, without thought, get the gun out and on target. That frees them to do the thinking required to decide if/how/when to shoot in that specific situation.

Focus on the task.  Ignore the goal (how will I place).  Focus on the basics as you test your skills.  Don’t compromise safety.  You are responsible for every shot.  No lapses allowed.


I’ve seen people make mistakes and will be penalized during competition.  We seldom see safety violations.  They happen, like dropping a firearm, but safety is respected.


Responsibility and power need to always be at an exact equal balance.

Responsibility without power is futile.

Power without responsibility becomes tyranny.


7.3300 to 7.4230

7.4700 to 7.5720

5- DGUs  (at beginning) These discussions are NOT legal advice. Some of us are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive Gun Use segment is intended as information, NOT as training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.


Rachel- Trespasser Shot Outside Detroit Home

A Detroit area homeowner investigated noises from his detached garage. Once outside his home, he was confronted by a man claiming to have a weapon. Faced with that credible threat to his life, he pulled his own pistol and shot the intruder. The intruder died from the single gunshot wound to the back.

Police arrested the man pending completion of the investigation. The homeowner’s wife’s statements were the basis for the above description. The homeowner himself declined to talk to police on the advice of his attorney. Late today, the police announced they will not be charging the man.    


There’s a lot to be said about this DGU.



Thoughts: 1) Wise to go outside the home to investigate?  2) Better to call the cops?  3) It is Detroit – and help is only hours – or days – away.  4) Is anything in the garage worth the homeowner’s life?  5) Better to bunker-down and wait the hours for the cops?  6) Does it matter if the sumdood was inside the fence – or outside it?  7) Seems he let his attorney do the talking for him. 8) Likely to be a civil case even though there was no criminal case.


John – It’s outside – leave it to the cops!

Paul – It’s RARELY a good idea to shoot

Rob- Things happen fast.  Things, and people, can turn sideways very quickly.  Plan for it.



Detroit Restaurant Patron Serves Up Hot, Steaming Lead

Paul- It seems things are getting dangerous for Detroit’s thugs. An armed robber was shot by his intended victim early one night in Detroit’s mean west side. Dennis and his girlfriend, Latanya, were at E&S Carry Out Shrimp Shack when the robber walked up and demanded money. The couple and another customer immediately complied with the demands. However, when the thug threatened Latanya, Dennis acted. “It wasn’t a plan. It was just instinct. He had the gun in my girl’s face.”


Dennis continued, “When I saw he had the gun in her face, and I threw my wallet down and keys, he turned to look and get the money, that’s when I lit him up.” His shot hit the robber in the stomach. He then kicked the wounded thug’s gun away.  “I feel for him. I’m hurting that I had to do that, but he left me no choice.” Dennis , perhaps unwisely, further showed his compassion by giving aid to the crumpled robber.  


Dennis is a licensed CCW carrier. Police say that this incident is likely to be lawful self defense.   


Rob- The victim spoke to the media and police. Detroit prosecutors prosecuted people just like Denis. Have a plan of what to do and what to say.



John- http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/should-i-provide-first-aid-to-the-attacker-i-just-shot






Gary – Delivering a Lead Pizza

A southwest Philly pizza delivery man is alive today, largely because he carried a gun. Keyveat Fredericks, 36, was delivering for Chester Pizza. He got out of his car with an armload of pizzas at what turned out to be an abandoned house. The driver was immediately ambushed by a group of males. “When I turned, the gun was in my face. He came out of nowhere,” Fredericks said. The thug demanded money and pizzas.  


In Fredericks’ own words; “My kids. I have eight children. When I saw that gun, I said, ‘This can’t be it.’ I smacked his gun. Ran around my vehicle. I had dropped the pizzas. I heard one shot. I felt it hit me. I can tell you I felt it go through my arm. I heard it literally hit my gun that was on my side on my holster and I felt it go inside of me.”


The injured delivery man crouched behind his car and drew his concealed firearm.  His target was the thug who tried to kill him for just a few dollars and some food. The thug likely to try to complete what he started. “I fired once at him and he took off down the block. If it wasn’t for the gun on my hip, it would have been a lot more damage,” stated Fredericks. The rest of the robbery crew likewise made themselves scarce. Fredericks drove himself to the hospital, thinking of his family the entire time.


Police said Fredericks is a legal concealed carrier. They have made no arrests in the assault.  “All I was trying to do was provide for my children. It’s a job, but I don’t think I can ever do it again.” However, Fredericks is alive, possibly – probably – because he had the foresight to get trained, licensed, equipped, and finally, actually carry his weapon. He armed himself in order to protect himself and his family.


Paul – just because you have been hit doesn’t mean that you are out of the fight.

Rob- Being a delivery driver is one of the most dangerous occupations.  Please take care out there.

Gary –


Rob- Good Samaritan Tries To Stop Robbery Without a Gun

“What we have here is a robbery gone really, really bad,” according to the San Antonio, Texas police. A good Samaritan who tried to intervene is dead, another man is alive. That man was a licensed concealed carrier.


It started with a daylight robbery of the Kay Jewelers in the Rolling Oaks mall. In a mad-minute, a civilian attempted to stop the robbers, but was fatally gunned downed by an armed thief. Another patron, a legal concealed carrier, engaged the shooter, hitting him multiple times. The other thief fled the gunfire, thankfully removing him from the confines of the store, its customers and employees. The criminal ran from the mall, spraying bullets at shoppers as he went, hitting two.


Two additional mall patrons were hospitalized after complaining of chest pains or premature labor. The unidentified wounded thief was hospitalized in critical condition.


The running thug escaped the mall, possibly in a car driven by another accomplice. The stolen car later wrecked in downtown San Antonio, leading to the arrest of Jason Matthew Prieto, 34. Two firearms were recovered from the wreckage. Police are still searching for the third suspect. The heavily tattooed Prieto owns an extensive criminal record starting in 2001 as a 19-year-old. He’s been arrested for aggravated assault, assault, eight charges of drug possession, two charges for burglary of a vehicle, two theft charges and two charges of evading detention. Add to that impressive resume the capital murder and two counts of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. He might finally get the jail time a violent career criminal deserves. Police believe Prieto and his partner may also  be responsible for another recent jewelry store robbery in San Antonio.

Information is very sketchy at this time, but it seems very likely that the armed citizen may have saved lives through the use of his weapon in the midst of a chaotic robbery gone really, really bad.


Observation: Once a trigger is pulled, criminals tend to keep shooting.  


John- Intervene if lives are at stake.  Don’t risk your life for property.


Paul- We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Listener e-mail discussion


Text message from JP


Please God NO RECIPES!!!! I have to deal with it darn near every day since my wife watches the chew and food network every freaking day. I’ll send in a question or two every week if I have to. Lol

Since I’m almost 50 I’ve been seeing more and more older people with red dots on their pistols and rifles. What budget friendly red dots would you recommend for under 200 bucks? I have no plans to try long range shooting at this time. Thanks.


Rob- I have a reflex sight on one of my rifles.  Vortex and Burris are right at the 200 price point.

I don’t have any experience with them.

John – I have the Vortex Sparc and Surefire and a Bushnell TRS-25

Gary – http://www.dvor.com/s/73blon



Paul- Our next email from Jerry

Dear People,

I enjoy your podcast immensely.  Thank you.  One constructive criticism I would offer is to remember that some of us are so new to the concealed carry gun world that some of your terms may be over our heads.  One I recall I believe is a five sixths twist which I assume has something to do with the markings (rifling) inside of the barrel.  I could be wrong.

But my question is regarding Russian manufactured ammo.  I have been told to stay away from it because it’s inferior.  Gun barrels blow up, etc.  Is there any truth to this?  Brands like TulAmmo and Silver Bear are mentioned.

Thank you!  And again I appreciate increasing my knowledge through listening to your podcast.




Rob- I’ve used imported ammo, Some Russian.  Some is corrosive.  Watch that.  Don’t expect great accuracy, but most of us are making bigger mistakes than the small error introduced by our ammunition.  If you’re more accurate than imported ammo, I salute you.


John –


Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- I’m been doing a lot of politics lately.  Chicago politicians blame guns for the nightly gang-murders.  I blame the Chicago politicians.  That article is call “Why Chicago is Dying, and Other Cities Aren’t”.  Earlier I wrote that “Guns Belong on Campus, and Everywhere Else”.  Those articles are up at Clash Daily, at Ammoland and at my blog, slow facts dot wordpress dot com.


John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money?


John- Among the blog posts I put up since we last recorded is one that relates to our first story. Our opponents in the war for gun rights are generally the same people who push for open government when they aren’t in power. Alinsky’s 4th Rule says to make your opponent live up to their rules. Thus, whenever Mayor Bloomberg parachutes one of his minions into a city or state, we should file a freedom of information act request. They will have left a paper trail and it can be used against them just like the Montana Shooting Sports Association is doing in Missoula. It may lead to a complaint to the state bar association or it might just be bad publicity but we should always punch back twice as hard.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.


We would like to thank Charlie Foxtrot for writing up show notes for us. Even though you don’t hear him on the air he is certainly part of what you do hear. Look at his blog at not one more gun law dot blogspot dot com


Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank Massad Ayoob, Gail Pepin and Bill Frady for joining us today.  So for Charlie Foxtrot, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, and Rob.

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Paul: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.


(after show close) How could we have made this episode better?


(DO NOT READ)Look at the shooters club by Bob Mayne and Ben Branam.  For $77.00 a year, $7.25 a month, you get 24/7 access to some fantastic training and audio podcasts that you can’t get anywhere else.  Subscribing from the link in our show notes helps Bob and Ben as well as helps us here at the Polite Society Podcast.


(DO NOT READ)Join your local civil rights group like the New Jersey Second Amendment Society, Arizona Citizens Defense League, Gun Owners of California, Commonwealth Second Amendment,  Connecticut Citizens Defense League, Florida Carry, Georgia Carry, Georgia Gun Owners, Grass Roots North Carolina, Illinois Carry, Maryland Shall Issue,  Michigan Gun Owners , Michigan Open Carry, and  Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners.


There are Minnesota Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance,  Nebraska Firearms Owners Association,   Citizens for a Safer New Jersey, New York State Rifle & Pistol Association,  Palmetto Concealed Carry, Open Carry Texas, Texas Firearms Freedom, Texas State Rifle Association. Tennessee Firearms Association, Virginia Citizens Defense League, Virginia Open Carry,  West Virginia Citizens Defense League, wisconsingunowners.org, and Wyoming Gun Owners.


For our Canadian listeners, and their supporters, join the Canadian Shooting Sports Association and the Canadian National Firearms Association.  If YOUR state or local organization isn’t read each episode, then send us an email and we’ll add them!


(DO NOT READ)The Polite Society download app is out on Amazon for Android and the I-phone app is in I-tunes and it is called Podcast Box.  They are located by our old name, Politics and guns.  Hot links are in our show notes.