Episode 432 – William Aprill, Shelley Hill, Marty Hayes, National CCR and the boyfriend who wouldn’t take NO for an answer

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/Episode20432.mp3 

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- News Segment

3- Interview Segment 1: William Aprill and Shelley Hill part 1

4- Interview Segment 2: William Aprill and Shelley Hill part 2

5- Interview Segment 3: Marty Hayes

5- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:


Please visit show sponsor Ammo.com


1- Introduction

John: Welcome to the polite society podcast powered by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Monday, Dec. 4th, 2017 I’m John Richardson

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we will talk with Dr. William Aprill and Shelley Hill about intimate partner violence.

Tracy: I’m Tracy Thronburg, and we’ll talk about finally getting moving on national concealed carry reciprocity.

Belle: I’m Belle McCormak We’ll interview Marty Hayes about women going to jail after defending themselves for domestic violence.

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in one of our DGUs we talk about a boyfriend that wouldn’t take no for an answer… so climb aboard

Tracy: strap in

Rob : and hang on!

John:  episode 432 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant 

Rob- Bill Frady and I talked about Self-Defense Gun Stories.  That was on his Lock and Load Radio program. I released another Episode of Self-Defense Gun Stories and had Tony Simon as my co-host. Lots of my instructors are having internet problems and I’m having recording problems. Fortunately I have paper books to read, like Ken Murrey’s Learning at the Speed of Life.


John -I installed my new Liberty handgun safe in our bedroom this week. Even though we don’t have young children, there will be times when my granddaughter Olivia and her yet to be named little sister will be visiting. Other than that, Barb took Olivia to Disney on Ice this weekend and we also took in a small town Christmas parade. Olivia get more candy there than at Halloween.

Rob( John, I have the Liberty HD100. You?) HD-300

Rob- Ah, the doublewide.




Tracy – I had the pleasure of having lunch yesterday with our good friend (and official physician of the Polite Society Podcast), Dr. John Edeen. He and I are shooting the MAG-120 next week in Live Oak, Florida. We ate jaegerschnitzel and made plans for next week. I feel grossly unprepared for the class, as I have spent the majority of the past two weeks giving personal instruction. Everyone, wish us luck!


Belle – Marty will be joining you in Florida, Tracy. He’s been getting ready today to fly out. Had our annual FAS Staff meeting over the weekend, good to see the whole group together. Everyone is set with their teaching assignments for 2018 and looking forward to the next training season.


Promo about upcoming training classes here.


Tracy – I’m teaching the MAG-20 range at KR Training January 27-28. Mas Ayoob and Marty Hayes are teaching Judicious Use of Deadly Force Instructor Jan 31-Feb 4, also at KR Training. Go to www.krtraining.com for more information and to sign up.


Belle – PSP/ASIC on July 24th-26th at FAS has 7 openings left. 2 spots today went to none other than – Mas Ayoob and Gail Pepin! Call the FAS Office, M-F, 9-4 Pacific time to get on the roster for this special class!


PROMO about PSP Patches


Ask listeners to listen to other shows on the network, name at least 2 shows.


2- News



After what has seemed like forever since the election of President Trump, the first Bill to promote National Reciprocity of CCW was moved to Committee debate on Wednesday November 28th. The vote was an ironic 19-11 in favor. It will be presented to the House floor for a full vote on Wednesday December 5th in the afternoon. As it currently stands, holders of a permit from “any state” will be able to carry in all states. The current Senate draft of the bill however requires that a permit from one’s home state must be held. As an added benefit, the House Bill also appears to shred magazine capacity laws.


Listeners to the show will remember very well the sad case of Shaneen Allen, whose experience after declaring her legal PA concealed firearm to a New Jersey Police officer was horrific; additional  cases involving members of the military and general citizens in places such as New York City are also well known. House Bill 38 is designed to prevent such miscarriages of justice.


The debate lasted all day. Amendments were presented to many topics – some related to the Bill and some to the usual talking points (such as “Universal” background checks). Some were minor, while some would have effectively nullified the Bill if it were to become law. Many of the amendments showed an almost complete ignorance of the processes of obtaining a CCW permit in the various States. All of the detrimental amendments were defeated, two (to allow Federal Judges to carry in any state and to allow retired and off-duty Law Enforcement officers to carry in gun-free school zones) did pass. The Bill was recorded as “reported favorably” to the House at 4.54pm


The House Rules Committee is expected to issue a rule to send this bill to the floor for a vote on Wednesday, Dec. 6th. The bill to be voted on combines concealed carry reciprocity with the Fix NICS Act passed out of the House Judiciary Committee in the same markup hearings.


Listeners are encouraged to contact their House Representatives to encourage them to vote “yes” on this key bill. We need to now look for the parallel bill in the Senate.


SOURCE: Live via YouTube.


John – Rep. Richard Hudson states that not only those with permits but those who live in constitutional states will also be covered by the bill.

Rob- Bargaining chips.


John – The anti’s are geared up. I just saw something put out by Giffords that gives scripts and fill-in the blank letters for calling and writing.





We may not need more data to support the National Reciprocity movement, but we certainly need to get the good stories about CCW holders out to a broader audience.


Here is a prime example of the Good Guys doing their work correctly. At 4.30 pm on Saturday November 25th, two legally armed citizens stopped the threat presented by a murderer.


The attacker shot two people, killing one and paralyzing another, at which point the two good guys intervened, stopping the attacker with their defensive handguns.


If they had not, things could have been much worse. The local Police Chief said: “The attacker had multiple magazines on his person.  He was intent on doing harm. The employees stepped up and prevented customers, employees, and other vendors who were in the business at the time from sustaining further injuries. They did a good job.”


In the week when the House may well vote on the National Reciprocity legislation, it’s important to let your State and Federal representatives know that the Good Guys are out there, working for us all, every day.













Some of us will have been aware of a recent clarification from our friends at ATF, regarding the prohibition of medical and recreational marijuana users from owning firearms. The 4473 form has been altered to specifically highlight this drug. This is Federal Law, so it applies across the whole country, including marijuana-liberalized states such as Colorado and Washington, and traditionally gun-friendly states such as Arizona


Recently, three states have begun the process of collecting firearms from citizens who have medical marijuana cards. Hawaii,  Florida and Pennsylvania are all issuing notices to gun owning marijuana users that they have to “turn them in”. Of course, to do this, there must be registries of gun ownership and medical MJ use, that can be cross-referenced.


We wonder whether this slow creep of state-legalized marijuana use is another part of the progressive long-game to prevent the upcoming generation from being able to own, and perhaps even handle, firearms.


We urge listeners to be on the look out for ballot initiatives or the like for the legalization of marijuana in your state and think carefully before voting for them, if you value your gun-rights, and those of the next generation.


Rob- All elections have consequences.

John – The only alternative is to remove the prohibition on marijuana from federal law. It actually may be counterproductive to resolving the opioid crisis.

Belle- I gotta agree with John












Rob- Gun Quotes-

The bill of rights isn’t about us, it’s about them.  It isn’t a list of thing we’re permitted to do.  It’s a list of things THEY aren’t allowed to even consider.  L. Neil Smith


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guests Dr William April and Shelley Hill.



3- Interview 1

William Aprill –

Interpersonal violence- murder suicide

Belle- it’s not a question of not recognizing it as much as it’s being embarrassed or ashamed by what is often perceived as allowing the behavior to occur. As far as “charging in” as Rachel said, this is a thing! I was that girl. I was a victim of the false confidence that made me basically say “try it buddy’ and then got hammered. As far as what Rachel said about asking-sometimes you have to GENTLY ask repeatedly, and ease them into being comfortable with opening up to you and enduring that embarrassment


If you want to help, you have to be willing to accept the burden of that-things you think are silly. You have to be willing to let them work through their plan the way that will allow them to follow through.





4- Interview 2

Marty Hayes – ACLDN

Women are prosecuted after they defend themselves from an abusive relationship.

Belle- What advice would you give to avoid this?

To all of you- how can we convince women to do what it takes to help themselves ie: get training?


Belle 5- DGUs  (at beginning) These discussions are NOT legal advice. Some of us are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive Gun Use segment is intended as information, NOT as training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.


John- Jacksonville Florida

In June, Michael Turner couldn’t leave well enough alone.  He broke out the window of an apartment in Jacksonville Florida.  The apartment was that of his ex-girlfriend.

Turner had been arrested previously on a felony domestic strangulation charge in 2016.  He strangled then punched his former girlfriend until she lost consciousness.  The charges were later dropped.

Police stated that they received a call about multiple shots fired just before 6 AM.  When they arrived at the apartment, they found the abusive ex-boyfriend dead after receiving multiple gunshot wounds.

Leaders with Hubbard House, an anti-domestic abuse organization, said unfortunately, there are a lot of misconceptions about women in abusive relationships.

Hubbard House CEO Ellen Siler said.”People assume that if the woman will just leave, everything’s going to be OK, and that isn’t always the case,” “There’s ongoing stalking and ongoing threats, so if you’re going to leave, it’s important for you to have a plan to safely leave, which Hubbard House can help you with.”

As of June, this was the 12th domestic related homicide in the Jacksonville in 2017 to that point.


Rob- Do you have access to your gun?


Tracy- Panola County Mississippi

It has been said that a protection or restraining order is only as strong as the paper that it has been printed on.  It did slow Phyllis Hamm’s estranged husband away.

Just 5 days after the order expired, James Clinton Hamm showed up at the residence they had shared outside Batesville, Mississippi and attempted to enter.  She had locked the door and tried to wedge a jack to keep the door shut.  Mr. Hamm was able to unlock the door then kicked it, which slid the jack out of the way.

As he entered the home, she fired her .22 caliber revolver and fatally injured her estranged late husband.  She had expressed her fear and had issues as part of their divorce in the past including finding a butcher knife stuck in the back porch.

Mrs. Hamm was taken into custody and put on a hold in the county jail pending a decision to indict or not by the Panola County Grand Jury, but she was later released.

Rob- Rachel said it is hard to shoot your ex.


Gary- Zephyr Hills Florida

Alejandria Guinn exercised her right to own a firearm and used it to defend herself.  When she was visited by her ex-boyfriend late one night, she had reason to fear for her life.

Frank Harrison has previously threatened to hurt her and when she saw him standing outside her home, armed with an AR style rifle, she had reason to fear for her life.

She scrambled to get her gun then made her way to the front door.  She opened the door and came out shooting.  She managed to end the threat permanently without getting herself shot.

While the police initially determined she had probably acted in self-defense so she wasn’t arrested or charged, they also have not found any records of past injunctions filed by Guinn against Harrison.


Tracy – Why did she open the door?

Rob- Get the paperwork.  Call the police.  Make your attacker come to you.

Rob- Eastlake Ohio

When Lake County Ohio Police responded to a call from a distraught woman they found more than just that woman.  They also found the woman’s ex-boyfriend on the floor with a gunshot wound to the leg and a pool of blood surrounding him.

The aggressive ex-boyfriend broke into her home and the woman responded with an equal show of force to end her perceived threat.  The man was transported to the hospital where he later succumbed to the loss of blood from his wound.

The handgun was secured at the scene and both the woman and another witness were brought in for questioning.  The unnamed woman has not been charged.

Rob- Have a gun, and preferably more than one.

Belle- Eastern Kentucky

Krystal Shepard has placed a warrant for assault against Brandon Endicott in September after he hit and kneed her causing her to receive 16 stitches and broken bones in her face.

When the man entered her home one morning shortly afterwards, Ms. Shepard defended herself.  Endicott was found deceased in a neighboring yard and a stray bullet went into a neighboring mobile home.

She had not been charged and the case was being sent to the grand jury.

Rob- there is no cover in a mobile home park.


We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Listener e-mail discussion


Gary: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?





You just might be a liberal hypocrite if…

As a star of the socialist news media, you act offended by President Trump’s talk of grabbing a woman’s sex..while off-camera you are busy raping women in your office.

As a liberal news caster you act indignant as you grill the conservative talk show host who is facing charges of sexual assault..while you are praying your own victims remain silent.


My articles are up at Clash Daily, at Ammoland and at my blog, slow facts dot wordpress dot com.  John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money.


It has been mostly news stories this past week involving HR 38 and national reciprocity with a little bit thrown in about a new lawsuit that our friends at SAF and Firearms Policy Coalition have sprung on California over their bullet button AWB.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.




Facebook listeners group


John: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank (Dr. William Aprill, Shelley Hill, and Marty Hayes) for joining us today.  So for Amy, Tracy, Belle, Jae, Dana, Douglas, Gary, Paul, Rachel, Susan, Craig, Grant and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Tracy: be aware,

Belle: and we’ll see you down the road.


Episode 431 – Willes Lee and News about Surplus 1911’s

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/Episode20431.mp3 

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- News Segment

3- Interview Segment 1: Willes Lee, Part 1

4- Interview Segment 2: Willes Lee, Part 2

5- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:


Please visit show sponsor Ammo.com


1- Introduction

Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast powered by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Monday November 27th,2017  I’m Paul Lathrop

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we will talk with Willes Lee about today’s NRA.

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll talk about the real possibility that we will be able to buy surplus 1911s from the Civilian Marksmanship Program!

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in one of our DGUs we talk about a suspect that pick the wrong pickup truck… so climb aboard

Susan: strap in

John : and hang on!

Paul:  episode 431 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob- I carried every day.


John – I recently received a gimbal stick like Gail Pepin had at Amm-Con. I’ve paired that with a directional microphone and a bracket. I’m hoping to produce some videos from the Industry Day at the Range and from the SHOT Show itself. Other than that, I did some shopping over the weekend and otherwise just was a stuffed podcaster.






Promo about upcoming training classes here.

Promo about PSP patches


Ask listeners to listen to other shows on the network, name at least 2 shows.



2- News




In what will be considered good news by many many US gun owners, one of the provisions of the 2018 National Defense Authorization Act, about to be signed into law by the President, will allow the release of thousands of surplus 1911s to the civilian market, an estimated one hundred thousand, to be more exact.


The guns will be fed out through the Civilian Marksmanship Program. Their website says that they have not yet decided how sales will be handled, or processed, but that they are expecting “exceedingly high demand” for these iconic handguns.







John – Just to clarify for anyone interested, you must belong to a CMP affiliated club and you must show proof of marksmanship. The latter could be your military discharge papers, a C&R FFL, your CCW, or your instructor credentials.




The Supreme Court has given us two significant victories in past years. The “Heller” and “McDonald” cases enshrined in law the concept that every American has the right to have a firearm, to “keep” and “bear”. This has made significant impacts in States such as New Jersey, where there was no commitment to the 2nd Amendment in the State Constitution.  However, more recently, SCOTUS has declined to expand these decisions into the realm of defensive carry outside the home, or to prevent erosion of access to commonly used firearms, such as the AR-15 style rifle. This sad process was reinforced again today (Nov 27), when two cases were denied a hearing.


So in total, SCOTUS has recently declined to hear five important 2A cases: Peruta v California, Kolbe v Hogan, Norman v Florida, Stephens v NJ and Purpura v NJ. Why is this? Are there too few votes to be certain of victory, Justice Gorsuch notwithstanding, or are the cases being weeded out by members of the Clerking Pool, without the Justices ever getting to actually consider them?


With the ever-gathering clouds of anti-gun legislation appearing on State and Federal horizons, we need a supportive SCOTUS working for us. Please be vigilant, and write to your State and Federal representatives to tell them to vote against anti-2A legislation, and to support pro-2A bills.













John – I have been busy today and was unaware that Kolbe v Hogan had cert denied today. That just sucks. It leaves in place the horrendous decision by the 4th Circuit. I would love to know who voted to hear the case and who voted it down.

Rob- we are running out of test cases. There is so much settled law in each circuit that it becomes harder to bring up a challenge case.





A failure of the military authorities to notify the civilian NICS system contributed to the mass murder of worshipers in a small Texan church by an individual whose military background should have prevented him from owning a firearm, thereby allowing the murderer to acquire multiple firearms, apparently legally. Now, Attorney General Sessions has asked for a review of the NICS system, to ensure that relevant military information is integrated correctly.


A bipartisan bill is proposed in the US Senate that would mandate such integration, which has been in the works since 2007








Gun Quotes-

The only way to make sure your gun will always be there when you need it is to always carry it.  Massad Ayoob


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest Willes Lee.



3- Interview 1 Lieutenant Colonel Willes K. Lee USA (Ret) is a member of the NRA Board of Directors from Hawaii and Virginia. He is a Benefactor Life member, serving on five NRA committees. Lee is a West Point graduate, U.S Army combat veteran, who served 26 years as a Defender of Freedom. Willes is the President of the National Federation of Republican Assemblies, a co-Chairman of the Trump-Pence Second Amendment Coalition, a member of the Council for National Policy, and on the board of the American Conservative Union Foundation, hosts of CPAC. He is a former GOP State Chairman and RNC member. Follow Lee www.WillesLee.com, Twitter and Instagram @WillesLee, and www.Facebook.com/WillesLeeNRA.



  1. Let’s talk a little NRA. When the general public thinks NRA they usually think lobbying organization, but there is more to the NRA than that right?
  2. I first met you at the SAF GRPC, so you are working with other gun rights organizations as well, how do you think the NRA does in teaming up with other gun rights organizations?
  3. We have had a few setbacks announced recently at SCOTUS, what are your thoughts?
  4. What can we do to get more workhorses like you on the NRA BOD as opposed to some of the show horses who lend their name but don’t show up?
  5. Trump Advisory board


4- Interview 2


5- DGUs  (at beginning) These discussions are NOT legal advice. Some of us are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive Gun Use segment is intended as information, NOT as training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.


It’s a Texas week for Defensive Gun Uses.


You Don’t Treat my Daughter that Way

A day-long argument in Denton Texas ended with the victim’s stepfather pulling his pistol in a no shoot defensive gun usage and the aggressive male roommate in jail.

The fight started in the early morning at the apartment where the 23-year-old victim lived.  The suspect, 31-year-old Chad Knapp, had taken some of the woman’s Adderall pills.  Adderall is used to treat ADHD and narcolepsy.

He was kicking and throwing things before he left the apartment through a back window with the pills.  The victim confronted him in front of the apartment as he got into his vehicle.  She attempted to grab the pills from the car.  The suspect pushed her hard and threw her backwards into a brick wall.  The force of hitting the wall caused her to fall to the ground at which point he started to drive away.

A nearby witness attempted to stop him by jumping on the hood of the car and was thrown off, suffering a small cut on her hand.

The victim was taken to the hospital where police noticed bruising on her arms from being grabbed.  Her head also hurt and her back had abrasions from the brick wall.

She returned to her apartment at about 8 PM with her stepfather who had a license to carry a concealed weapon.  As they were trying to get the door open, the suspect approached them with a hammer.  Her stepfather then presented his pistol.

Knapp was held in Denton City Jail on charges of Assault causing bodily injury and deadly conduct.


Woman shoots teen intruder in head and Marine defends himself

A Houston Texas woman was home alone when she heard someone breaking into her home at 2 AM.  When she investigated the sound, one of the teenagers hiding behind her couch jumped up.  At that point, she shot the suspect in the head.

She is not facing any charges but as per usual, the case will be sent to a grand jury.

About 3 miles away on Friday night, a group of four teens tried robbing a man at gunpoint.  That man, a retired Marine, pulled his pistol from the front pouch of his hoodie and fired back and hit one of the teens.  The injured teen’s mother took him to a hospital and he was expected to survive.  The teens were caught on a neighbor’s surveillance camera before the ambush and as they ran away.

It was not known if the two incidents are related but the area has seen an escalation of roving gang activity.



Rob- I used a flashlight with my students. They find that exercise shocking.


Chase suspect picks wrong pickup truck

On Sunday morning, Vidor Texas Police were notified by the Louisiana State Patrol that they were chasing a black Acura at speeds over 100 miles per hour on Interstate 10.  As the Acura approached the 855B off ramp, law enforcement laid down the stop sticks which disabled the car.

Ahead in a pickup truck heading the same direction, Tony Alford spotted the smoking car coming towards them and pulled over to get out of the way.  Diego Gomez, the MS-13 gang member, driving the Acura pulled in behind them and jumped up in the bed of the truck.  Alford jumped out of the truck and held the criminal at gunpoint until law enforcement pulled up.

While Alford held his gun on Gomez, Vidor Police and Texas DPS troopers deployed tasers.  The gangbanger ripped the prongs out and attempted to fight officers.  He was cuffed during the struggle.

While they had him sitting on the ground waiting to EMS to arrive, he gained his feet and ran from the scene but was captured a second time.

Alford’s wife said that he was prepared for the worst-case scenario.  “He was that far from getting a bullet,” she said.

Gomez is facing charges of evading arrest in a motor vehicle and aggravated kidnapping.  Louisiana was seeking charges for fleeing and traffic violations.  In North Carolina, he is facing charges including assault on a peace officer.



Paul –

Rob- I bet the toxicology reports were interesting.


We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Listener e-mail discussion


Hello Everybody –

Really enjoying your format modifications with all the new voices and personalities, nice work.

What I have for you is not some great new revelation or heady political analysis ….but  it’s better than recipes…I am kidding Susan!

I wrote this a while ago this past summer when Venezuela was front-and-center, but I never hit “Send.” I guess I thought it was rather obvious and mundane. But now with the heinous evil acts carried out in Las Vegas and Texas, there seems to be renewed calls to vacate or significantly modify the political foundational documents of America.

Considering what is happening in Venezuela, I thought this short story from our own American history might be timely. The below information is from the book “The Debate on the Constitution, Federalist and Antifederalist Speeches, Articles, and Letters During the Struggle over Ratification – Part I.” edited by Bernard Bailyn, 1993.

Shortly after adjournment of the Philadelphia Convention in September 1778, the colonial citizenry began the very public debate on the new American Constitution. In lieu of our current day social media, and with a lot more eloquence than our cryptic Tweeter quips, the citizens debated the virtues and follies of the new American Constitution in the newspapers, printed pamphlets and public letters. The press and local public speaking events were used to extol, ridicule, or just question the virtues, of the newly inked Constitution.

One such presentation was made on October 17, 1787 in the Philadelphia press by “A Citizen of America,” which was an alias (a Twitter Handle) for Noah Webster. He wrote…

“Another source of power in government is a military force. But this, to be efficient, must be superior to any force that exists among the people, or which they can command; for otherwise this force would be annihilated, on the first exercise of acts of oppression. Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to the band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of the Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive (Bailyn 1993 p.155).”

Webster’s 1787 passage provides a view into how guarded the population was of tyranny. The Bill of Rights, in particular the 2nd Amendment, would not be ratified for another 13 years (December 15, 1791). So even in the absence of the ratified 2nd Amendment, Americans were staunch in their conviction to keep and bear.

I wonder if Venezuelans would think the American Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, quaint outdated historical documents. Or would they warn us to exercise prudence when considering changes to our longstanding government.


Your Faithful Anonymous Michigan Listener.
Rob- A good analogy to today. Colonial immigrants saw minorities disarmed in Europe.




Hi, folks:


I enjoyed the discussion regarding churches.  As a Catholic, I‘m always interested to know what the Catholic position is.


The Roman Catholic Church is the largest Christian denomination in the USA, and so its actions are closely watched by many as an example of how churches should deal with the issues of criminality and violence in our society.


Many Catholic Bishops have declared churches in their respective dioceses to be „gun free“ zones.  Furthermore, many bishops have advocated openly  against armed self defense. Unfortunately, these teachings by the bishops in many cases, may directly contradict the formal  teachings of the Church.


Saint John Paul, known in life as Pope John Paul II, explained the need for, and obligation of, self defense.  In his own words, from the Papal Encyclical Evangelium Vitae (p. 55):


“Legitimate defence can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another’s life, the common good of the family or of the State. “. [Quoting Catechism of Catholic Church #2265]. Unfortunately it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose action brought it about, even though he may not be morally responsible because of the lack of the use of reason.“


You‘ll never hear the priests or bishops cite this contradiction of their heretical teachings.


Kindest Regards,






How about: MSSSLL, as in missile.








-Jeremy M in Iowa



Hi Folks,

I wrote the following poem a few years ago in order to honor and thank our soldiers, cops and civilian warriors. Please share it with your listeners.

The Sheepdog’s Prayer

The Knights of Old were Men of Honor who used their Might For Right!

Today they’re known as Sheepdogs, those who carry on the fight.

I am a tired old Sheepdog, the guardian of my flock.

I keep the predators at bay and stand watch around the clock.

Please stop the Sheep from pulling my teeth. I’ll need them for the fight,

When the hungry Wolves come calling, some dark and deadly night.

I pray I’ll never need my gun, but someday if I do:

May my cause be just!

My draw be quick!

And my aim be ever true!

Heaven holds a special place for those who do the deed.

Defenders of the innocent in their hour of need.

May the Sheep someday be grateful. There’s a debt they can not pay,

To the Sheepdogs who lay it on the line, each and every day.

I’m proud to be a Sheepdog. I’ve done my very best!

I’ll stand my watch until my Maker calls me home to rest.

But when I meet St. Peter, there’s just one request I’ll make:

“Please let me spend Eternity, standing guard at Heaven’s Gate”.

Lord, help us bring this ”Age of Sheep” to a rapid end.

Then fill this land with Sheepdogs, Men of Honor once again.

This prayer is dedicated, to those who bravely face,

The dangers all around us to make our world a safer place.

To the soldiers, cops and warriors- Sheepdogs through and through.

Thank you for your service and your sacrifices too.


Roger E. Temple- Sheepdog Firearm Training LLC




Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- A crazy man in Red Bluff, California was willing to murder his wife and neighbors.  Since stopping criminals is hard and passing laws is easy, I expect the California politicians to call for more laws to encumber honest and sane citizens. These new laws, and the media opportunities they generate for politicians, won’t stop the next murder either. The new laws will allow the politicians to appear relevant. The real problem is complex, and frankly, the problem is beyond the sound-byte politicians in Sacramento. https://slowfacts.wordpress.com/2017/11/16/people-died-in-red-bluff-california-and-there-are-no-easy-solutions/

Paul –

Gary –


My articles are up at Clash Daily, at Ammoland and at my blog, slow facts dot wordpress dot com.  John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money.


This Black Friday saw the all-time one-day record for NICS checks set with over 203,000 checks. While there isn’t a one-to-one correlation with firearms purchases, it is a sign that maybe the stagnation in the firearms’ market is coming to a close. For the sake of those people working in the firearms industry at the retail, distributor, or manufacturer levels I certainly hope so.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.

Paul – Remington



Facebook listeners group


Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank Willes Lee for joining us today.  So for Amy, Tracy, Belle, Jae, Dana, Douglas, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, Craig, and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Susan: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.


Episode 429 – An Interview with Tony Simon and a roundtable discussion on Church security with Greg Hopkins, Ben Branam and Laura Carno

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/Episode20429.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- News Segment

3- Interview Segment: Guest Tony Simon

4- Interview Segment 1: Church security round table Greg Hopkins, Laura Carno, Ben Branam, pt 1

5- Interview Segment 2: Church security round table Greg Hopkins, Laura Carno, Ben Branam, pt 2

5- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:


1- Introduction

Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast powered by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Monday, November 13th, 2017, I’m Paul Lathrop.

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we talk with Tony Simon about inviting minorities to shoot with us.

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll talk about guns in church.

Amy: I’m Amy Dillon, and we look at mass murder around the world.

Belle: I’m Belle McCormack and we’ll be covering a DGU involving a kidnapping gone wrong

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in one of our DGUs we have another case of don’t torque off the old guy… so climb aboard

Amy: strap in

John : and hang on!

Paul:  episode 429 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob- I recorded another episode of Self-Defense Gun Stories and talked about it on Bill Frady’s radio program, Lock N Load Radio program. I carried every day. I read another chapter of Ken Murray’s book, “Training at the Speed of Life.” I got Dustin Salomon’s new book, “Mentoring Shooters”. I have a lot to read.


John – I am still trying to digest everything I learned at Massad Ayoob’s MAG-20 class. There is so much there. I haven’t started to transcribe my notes yet as Mas said to wait 2 weeks. Other than that, not much gun related news.


Amy – Not a lot of news. Been getting over being sick…I was able to get to the range one day last week at least for some handgun practice. And today I actually toured an AR manufacture company local to me in South Carolina, Lead Star Arms.

Belle- I have no gun related news. I had my first weekend off in a long time, now that classes have wrapped up for the season. I spent my Saturday at my little girl’s wrestling meet-where she won 3 out of 3 and got a 1st place medal. Then took the kids to the range for some plinking at steel on Sunday. And I got my recipes into Susan for the cookbook!



Promo about upcoming training classes here.

Promo about PSP patches


2- News

Mass Shootings and Gun Free Nations

Sandy Hook, San Bernardino, Mandalay Bay, Sutherland Springs.  These place names bring about the recollection of mass shooting events.  To the gun banning crowd, they are a call to ban guns from our society.  They claim that the USA is the only nation where mass shooting occur.

Historians know better.


Going back for the last 100 years, we have examples of mass shootings perpetrated throughout Europe, Africa, the Middle East and Asia.  Legitimate and illegitimate governments have been those responsible for these horrendous acts.


June 22, 1941 marks the start of the Nazi German invasion of the Soviet Union.  Special SS units were deployed and would go into villages and round up all the Jews or Gypsies (also known as Roma) and force them out of town.  There they would be all shot at once.  Within a year, their body count had reached about the 1 million mark. Over time the mass shooting squads were replaced with mobile gas vans then extermination camps such as Auschwitz or Dachau.


Prior to World War II, in Poland and the Soviet Union, “no firearm, not even a shotgun” could be legally owned without a government permit.  And if you do not want the peasants to be armed, then you do not issue permits.


In Poland the usual way for the citizens to arm themselves was through scavenging.  Poland had been the battlefields of World War I and the Russo-Polish war and many guns had been left behind with the dead.  The usual practice was to shorten the barrels for concealment.  Another opportunity presented itself then the Soviets retreated out of Poland following the June 22 push by the Nazis into that portion of the country they occupied.


It is estimated that mass murders by governments between 1901 and 1990 topped 169 million.  This does not include smaller scale mass murders and shootings performed by one or two individuals.


The Gun Control crowd will insist that armed self-defense would not have made a difference.  While it is true that they would not have been able to drive back the German Army, armed resistance would have killed some and made the extermination of millions a little more difficult.

Contrary to the claims of the gun prohibition lobbies, sensible policies to minimize mass shootings are not simply a matter of confiscating guns from the law-abiding.  The better approach is to prevent firearm access by those who are likely to use them offensively.  This was adopted by the US in the 1930’s with the Federal Firearms Act of 1938 which prohibited sales to felons.  The NICS system works towards this objective.


The second policy for reducing death tolls is to give lawful defenders the means to resist.  This means eliminating gun free zones for licensed, trained adults such as churches.

The US can never become a gun free nation where resistance to a rogue government could emulate Nazi Germany.  The Property Requisition Act of 1941 was the first to outlaw federal gun registration and confiscation.


Sensible gun laws aim to keep firearms from those who would do evil while fostering the legitimate, defensive uses.  Mass disarmament of citizens is the gateway to more Pulse Nightclubs not the roadblock.


John – I read a short letter to the editor this weekend. It was direct and to the point:  Wanton killing of millions in the name of some bankrupt ideology is a bit more difficult when everybody, not just the elite, are armed.


Rob- I ran the numbers.  Governments are far more dangerous than armed citizens.


Amy – I agree, Gary. We can’t predict the future. The Constitution is in place for the defense of our future.


Gun Quotes

The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them.  ..to cover with the veil of secrecy the common routine of business, is an abomination in the eyes of every intelligent man, and every friend to his country. Patrick Henry


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest (Tony Simon and a whole panel to talk about church security.



3- Interview 1- Tony Simon The Second is for Everyone


Belle- (DON’T BE SHY) What’s your secret to creating that comfortable environment? What is your recommendation to other trainers to help break down some of those barriers? What can we do to help you?





4- Interview 2 Church Security Round Table 6:30

Let’s introduce our guests.  Going from east to west, we start with Greg Hopkins from Huntsville, Alabama. Greg is a criminal defense lawyer. He was a city prosecutor, and a city judge. He also teaches self-defense law to church security teams. He also wrote the book, “A Time To Kill: The Myth of Christian Pacifism.”


Ben Branam left the marine corps at the rank of sergeant. He did 1 tour in Iraq with the marines, and another as a private security contractor. Ben worked as church security.  He teaches armed self-defense and church security in San Antonio, Texas.


Laura Carno brought FASTER training to Colorado. Faster training teaches school staff to be first responders. She raised the money. Laura made the political connections, found the instructors, found the training facilities, admitted the first class of trainees, and handled the media relations. She is a political consultant and commentator from Colorado Springs, Colorado.


Laura, let me start with you. We had a mass murder at a Texas church. I looked at the numbers, and the attacks on churches are increasing. Should we worry about church security?


Laura- church as violent as schools. Some parishioners are disarmed by law. Church staff handle health emergencies every week. It isn’t unusual for a medium sized church to have tens of thousands of parishioners, though many won’t come every week. When you’re dealing with a group of that size, you will have problems.


Greg- Should the church protect the congregation and staff, or is that up to god?

Biblical answer

Moral answer

Legal answer

Risk management answer, since churches now run 24-7 and need to protect their staff on the job.


Ben, I’m going to direct this next question back at you.  Greg gave us a big church answer.  Let’s start really small. Should I carry in church?


Now, step a church through a growing security structure. What should they do as they add manpower and resources?

You carry to protect your family.

You and your friends make sure that there are several armed individuals at each service.

The church forms a security team. They want to cover every building at every service. Protect people first.

Expand the security team. Children’s area, parking lots, the minister and his family, VIPs, backstage, staff areas, accounting.

Security for mid-week meetings

Security for staff when open. That may be 24-7.

Security training for the security team members..

Security systems and intelligence. Threat assessment.

Quick Start Outline for a professional security program at www.ModernSelfProtection.com/church


Greg- You teach use of force for churches. What are the steps that churches go through when they decide to implement a security plan. We have a question from our Facebook Live audience, how do they come to be your clients?


Laura, you stepped up and decided to open FASTER training to church staff.

Remind us what FASTER stands for.


So we have to re-label the curriculum as Pastor training, but the same issues apply.


Tell us about that decision to open your training classes to church staff..

Laura- Similar to schools.

Can’t fund churches.


Laura, do you expect any political resistance to teaching church staff?  Will some churches ask the Colorado legislature to make churches into gun-free zones, as if that would make the problem go away?


5- DGUs  (at beginning) These discussions are NOT legal advice. Some of us are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive Gun Use segment is intended as information, NOT as training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.


Amy – You picked the wrong house

Phillip Donovan is a police officer for the Denver Police Department.  Donovan works the night shift so he sleeps in the basement of his home in Littleton Colorado.

About 4:30 PM this week, Donovan was asleep when he was woken up by someone breaking into his home.  Donovan responded to the break-in by shooting and killing the home intruder.  Police are calling it a burglary.

Donovan has worked for the for DPD as a police officer since January 2006.

The intrusion had the block taped off by police the night it happened and has the neighborhood talking still.

Keith Mann, who lives down the street told reports, “Gives the intruders something to think about.  It could be the last thing they ever do.”

Another neighbor stated that it got her thinking about what she would do in a similar situation.  She said she would do the same thing.  “My family is way more important.”

“When they break in and barge into our home, we have to do what we have to do to protect ourselves,” Mann added.

Denver Police would not comment on the case but said that off-duty officers involved in shooting are placed on a modified or administrative assignment pending the outcome of the investigation.


Rob- Lock the door. Secure your gun in a way that you can get it quickly.

Paul – The police often get the benefit of the doubt from their co-workers. You or I might not get the same benefit –

Gary – Dr. John Lott Jr.


Gary – Don’t mess with the Old guy

We have told you before not to mess with the old guy.  There is a reason they got the be the old guy.

Timothy Roper, Miranda Murphy and Joshua White thought that they would make an easy score by attacking and robbing an elderly man in Boaz, Kentucky in the far western region of the state.

The man responded to their robbery and assault by shooting Roper in the upper torso.  Roper showed up at a local medical center at about 9::30 PM where he later died.

His two accomplices were arrested the following night by Kentucky State Police.  Both were charged with complicity to commit first-degree burglary and complicity to commit first-degree robbery.  Murphy was also charged with first-degree possession of a controlled substance, that being Methamphetamine.


Rob- Most of the people who commit violent crime are intoxicated.

John – Think to keep in mind that many of these old guys have served in the military.

Amy – Elderly people carry firearms as a tool for self defense because they may have limited physical capability. I am happy that they have a way of defending themselves against violent crimes.


John – Kidnapping gone haywire

A quartet of teenage hoodlums devised an elaborate plan to kidnap the 17 year-old daughter of a man they believed to be wealthy in the panhandle of northwest Florida.  The four had masks, guns, a knife, a roll of tape and latex gloves. They even put construction barrels on the road to the family’s home.

Their hopes were that the barrels would cause the girl to stop and get out of her car.  Instead, she simply drove around them and caller her father to tell him about the roadblocks.

A short time later, the father heard dogs barking and a car door slam.  His motion activated floodlights also came on.  After receiving his daughters call, he was on alert and armed himself as he went to investigate.

What he found was someone attempting to break into his garage.

He fired three shots and the would-be intruders fled into the woods.

Their plan had been to kidnap the girl, then overpower her father in order to rob the home but instead they were caught by police driving a 2016 Jeep Liberty away from the crime scene.

The oldest of the four was 19 and was taken to county jail while the other three are minors and were booked at the juvenile detention center.  They are all facing charges of attempted kidnapping and attempted home invasion robbery.


Rob- He needed to go get his gun. He missed. He may have been shooting at criminals who were running away.

Paul – last 2 stories were multiple attackers.

Rob- Average number of attackers is 2.3

John – Wouldn’t it be nice if short barreled rifles with suppressors didn’t require 6 plus months and a large tax.

We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Listener e-mail discussion


I just wanted to tell all of you how much I enjoy your podcasts. I’m sorry to hear that Paul won’t be on the air for a while- he will be missed.

I also don’t have any recipes for your book but I do have something that I want to contribute and that I hope you will share with your listeners. I’m also a firearms instructor and I noticed that a few of my students had trouble remembering the proper sequence of steps to unload or clear a semi-automatic pistol properly. They had no problem remembering the four steps but doing them in the correct order was an issue and can be very dangerous. Long story short, I came up with a 13-word rhyme to help them remember. Please read the attached document. It contains the rhyme that I call “The Fifth Cardinal Rule of Gun Safety”.  I really believe that memorizing this rhyme can save lives so I hope that you will share it with your listeners and spread it to other firearm blogs and podcasts the same as you have done with your “POGO”. I love that and share it with everyone I know.

Please send me a reply email  so I know you got this email and keep up the great work you do. If you like this contribution, I have some additional ones I would like to share that may help others as well. Please let me know.

Thank you,

Roger E. Temple- President of Sheepdog Firearm Training LLC



Unloading a Semi-Automatic Firearm


By Roger E. Temple- Sheepdog Firearm Training LLC


Jeff Cooper’s 4 Cardinal Rules of Gun Safety:


  1. “Treat every gun as if it is loaded.” Make sure you prove a firearm is unloaded and then still treat it as if it is loaded- even airsoft and plastic guns.
  2. “Don’t point the muzzle at anything you don’t intend to destroy.” Only point it in a safe direction.
  3. “Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.” Clint Smith says “On target- on trigger. Off target- off trigger.” The most effective safety on every firearm is your extended trigger finger along the frame.
  4. “Know your target and what’s beyond it.” Don’t shoot unless you know where your bullet will stop.


The 5th Cardinal Rule of Gun Safety:


Unloading a semi-automatic firearm that has a detachable magazine is not difficult but the sequence of tasks must be performed in the proper order. If the shooter mistakenly pulls the pistol slide or rifle bolt first, a new round from the magazine will be inserted into the chamber and the gun will still be loaded even after the magazine is removed. The shooter who does this mistakenly thinks that his firearm is now empty when in fact it is still loaded! This is a very dangerous situation and has resulted in many negligent discharges, injuries and even deaths.


Some firearm manufacturers have come up with a mechanical solution for this problem which is called a “magazine disconnect safety”. It’s only available on some firearms: The Ruger SR9, Walther P22 and the Sig Mosquito are a few examples. Any firearm which has a magazine disconnect safety is designed not to fire if the magazine has been removed. Even if the gun was unloaded incorrectly and still has a round in the chamber, it won’t fire once the magazine is removed.


This solution is fine on the guns that have a magazine disconnect safety but what about the millions of pistols and rifles out there that don’t have one? Or what happens if the magazine safety fails? A better solution that works every time is for shooters to learn a simple, 13 word rhyme that I have written. It is so simple that I have even taught it to an eight year old. Once she learned the rhyme, she was able to unload a semi-automatic pistol perfectly by herself every time (using snapcaps of course).


How do you teach a child to remember the alphabet? You use the “ABC’s” song. How do you remember the color sequence on a deadly coral snake versus that on the non-lethal scarlet king snake? “Red on yellow, kills a fellow; red on black venom lack” These two examples use a common memory aid, rhyming, that makes the job of remembering information and proper sequences much easier. Using this technique, I have written a simple rhyme for properly unloading a semi-automatic firearm with a detachable magazine:


“Drop the Mag then Pull the Slide. Take a Look and Feel Inside.”


Did you notice that the first letter of each of the first four significant words are in alphabetical order? What is most important is if you mistakenly start the rhyme with “Pull the slide…” it no longer rhymes. You can only make a rhyme if you say the words and perform the actions in the proper order. Try it for yourself.

Learn the rhyme and save a life!

Please pass this information onto other gun owners. Be Safe.


Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- I have several, but I want to give you one of the comments that I got. One of my reader’s said this.


My other articles are up at Clash Daily, at Ammoland and at my blog, slow facts dot wordpress dot com.  John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money.


With all the attacks on gun rights from the gun prohibitionists, we need a strong NRA with a strong Board of Directors. Given that 90% of life is just showing up, we need Directors who get to meetings. I posted the attendance records of the existing Board and it isn’t pretty. It is obvious who are the show horses and who are the work horses. To combat this, Adam Kraut has proposed a number of bylaw changes which I fully support. They include soft term limits, attendance requirements for being nominated, and the creation of an Honorary Board. I support these changes and think those listeners who are voting members should give them a serious look.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.



Listeners FB group


Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank (Tony Simon, Greg Hopkins, Ben Branam, and Laura Carno) for joining us today.  So for Amy, Tracy, Belle, Jae, Dana, Douglas, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, Craig, and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Belle: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.


Episode 428 – Dr. John Edeen

Please visit our NEW Sponsor AMMO.com


Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/Episode_428.mp3 

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- News Segment

3- Interview Segment 1: Guest Dr John Edeen

4- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:


1- Introduction

Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast powered by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Monday, November 6th, 2017. I’m Paul Lathrop

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we will talk with John Edeen about doctors who practice outside their area of specialization..for example, a doctor who gives you advice about your firearms.

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll go in depth about the Texas church shooting

Tracy: I’m Tracy Thronburg and we will talk about making the police work harder by defending our lives

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in one of our emails we have a listener who wants to tell us that Hi Point firearms are fine for personal defense

Belle: strap in

John: and hang on!

Paul:  episode 428 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob- Bill Frady and I talked about Self-Defense Gun Stories.  That was on his Lock and Load Radio program. David Cole and I recorded another Episode of Self-Defense Gun Stories.

I carried every day and got in some dry practice.


John – I spent the weekend in Matthews, NC attending the MAG-20 Classroom – Armed Citizen’s Rules of Engagement. I am in information overload and I have extreme writer’s cramp! I knew it was going to be good as I had heard Mas speak before. It was beyond good. Gail Pepin, Mas, and I had a joint PSP-ProArms Podcast interview with Brian “Gunny” Zins. He is a 12 time National NRA Champion in Pistol. He’s the guy who can hit a 3” circle at 50 yards 20 times out of 20 — one handed with a 1911.



Tracy – Not a whole lot has gone on in my world this past week. I’ve just been dry firing the triple speed qualification that I will be shooting next month at the MAG-120 in Live Oak, Florida. I should be getting my beloved Trojan back this week from the gunsmith, who put an ambi thumb safety on it for me, so I can shoot the Mirror Image qualification with it next month at the MAG-120. It takes a lot of time, money, and gear to take these advanced level classes! Oh, and it was 91 today in Austin, Paul. I’ve shorts on and got the AC and ceiling fan a goin’.


Belle-Just finished Basic and Advanced HG Ret., my fave class at FAS. Im working to become the first female instructor to be certified to teach that program and i’m edging closer to that goal each class. Spending my “free” time taking my little girl to her first season of wrestling practice and my oldest to Drivers Ed, so i’m a frazzled mom in that so-called free time. All in all, life is good (as Kathy would say).

(Belle, did you notice that I put your photo on the podcast page?)


Belle- Susan! Wait for me! I will get a couple in to you this weekend. (My first off in more than a month)






LOSD class


FAS ASIC course- 12 spots left, 7/24/18-7/26/18, $575, includes long range pistol, accuracy under stress, force-on-force scenario/decision making drills and more! Sue’s cooking!!




Promo about PSP patches.


Promo about upcoming training classes here.


2- News


Sit down shut up and be a good little sheep

Before we get to the 800 pound gorilla in the room we had a few people send us a link to a story from MSN with the headline “Are more guns helpful? In Wal-Mart shooting, armed shoppers hinder police investigation”


The gist of the article is that several people who were in a Wal Mart in the Denver area drew their concealed handguns when a random killer came in and began firing. This caused the police extra work because they had to go find those people and remove them as suspects. MSN it seems would rather that we all just sit like pleasant little sheep and wait for the active killer to come find us.


Rob- Solve your first problem first. Once you and your family are safe, then you can worry about inconveniencing the police. We pay them to sort out those kind of problems.

John – Mas mentioned this in the MAG-20.



Texas church shooting

A murderer entered a Texas church and killed 26 people. Dozens more are injured. The murderer had frequently sent threatening text messages to his mother in law . She attended the church, and she was killed during the attack. The murderer had a long history of domestic problems. He beat his wife and child while he was in the Air Force. He received a courts martial and spent a year in the stockade. He then received a bad conduct discharge. Had he received a dishonorable discharge, he would have been a prohibited person. He should have been prohibited from buying firearms because of his domestic violence conviction. We don’t know if that criminal record was entered into the NICS system.


During this attack, the murderer was shot by a neighbor who lived next door to the church. The neighbor or his daughter heard the gunfire and grabbed his rifle. He shot the murderer. The murderer was wearing body armor, but the return fire was enough to make the murderer break off the attack. The murderer got in his car and drove away. The neighbor and a passerby followed the attacker. After the murderer crashed his car, the murderer took his own life.


The talking heads reacted in very predictable ways after this attack.. The murderer used an AR style firearm, so the anti-gun groups said we need to ban assault rifles. They also called for more background checks and blamed the NRA.


Since the mainstream media won’t do it, we will point out the incontrovertible facts.

The murderer bought his guns by going through a background check.

The murderer was refused when he tried to get his Texas concealed handgun license.

Two ordinary citizens, one of them armed, stopped the attack long before the police arrived.

It is unclear if the church was properly posted, but it likely was not posted with the state required gun prohibition signs. That means that the congregation could have been armed, but they chose not to be.




Tracy – Contrary to common belief, you can carry in a church (or other house of worship) in Texas unless you are given verbal or written notification to the contrary. Let me take this moment to remind our listeners that YOUR SAFETY is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. Law enforcement only shows up after things have started to get bad and someone has called them.


Rob- After the attack, Ken Paxton, the Texas Attorney General, said this, “I would rather arm law-abiding citizens… as opposed to trying to pass laws that would prevent law-abiding citizens from having guns.”  Paul, if we didn’t already have one, this should be the gun quote of the week.


Gary –

Paul – I want to go back to what Tracy was saying – it took about 5 minutes for the police to show up AFTER the killer wrecked the car

John – The guy passed a background check. It brings into question whether the military justice sys reports stuff to the NICS system — or can. Is this a failure of the AF or a failure of the FBI? The military justice system is different and I don’t know if they are required to report domestic violence convictions. They don’t have either felonies or misdemeanors within their system.

Tracy – John, I got a news update that stated the Air Force failed to flag him to the FBI or NICS.


Rob- Church security works very hard to remain anonymous.


Gun Quote

“Here is a fundamental difference between the Right and the Left: what we put our faith in. When these horrors happen, those on the right tend to first invoke Jehovah God for mercy on the victims and wisdom, strength, and guidance on how we can make the world a better place and protect the innocent.

“Those on the Left tend to instantly invoke their all-powerful god, Government. They believe that personally, they are fundamentally helpless, but that if government makes just one more law and takes just a little more freedom away, then they can “feel safer”.”


Greg Hopkins


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest, Dr. John Edeen.



3- Interview 1

Dr John Edeen 6pm cst


Rob- Since my muffler doesn’t do what Dr Herrington said they do, can I tell the government that I really don’t own a firearms muffler..so I don’t need a tax stamp and federal approval.


When we close-

Dr. John is the official staff physician for the polite society podcast. To all the other podcasts and radio shows where he speaks for Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership, we can only say this; We got him first!


4- Interview 2


5- DGUs (at beginning) These discussions are NOT legal advice. Some of us are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive Gun Use segment is intended as information, NOT as training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.


The Biggest and Fastest Gun

81-year-old Buddy Cates has been robbed a half dozen times in the last 10 months. This has been confirmed by the local sheriff’s office. When a thug attempted to rob him this week, he was prepared.

The robbery attempt happened about 1:30 PM outside the Cates home. Mr. Cates stated that he walked outside the door and the robber was standing there with a “big pistol.” He had his hand in his pocket on his pistol, “and the battle was on,” he recalled.

Cates estimated that there were six to eight shots fired which authorities confirmed.

The armed thug was on the receiving end of one of Mr. Cates shots and none of his found their target. The wounded criminal was taken to a Texarkana hospital where he later died.

“Whoever got the biggest gun and fastest will be boss when it is all said and done. ….In this case, it was me.”

No charges have been filed.

Paul –
John – It is what Mas called survival euphoria.

Criminal behaving Badly

An attempted breaking and entering ended badly for the criminal last week.

About 5 AM, the doorbell rang at the suburban Austin Texas home. When the homeowner answered the door, the criminal apologized for being at the wrong house and left.

A few minutes later the man was back and kicked in the door and entered the home. Unknown to him, the homeowner was armed and ready and opened fire.

Neighbors said they heard about half a dozen shots. A neighbor, whose bedroom window is just yards away, said, “I heard someone screaming and then 5 or 6 shots so I freaked out. I had no idea what was going on,” said Savannah Askin.

She initially heard very loud music and screaming right before the shots. She believed the music was coming from the suspect’s car which was found at the scene. She questioned why someone who may be attempting to burglarize a home would draw attention with loud music.

The car and a bag, found on the front porch, were collected and searched for evidence.

The homeowner and his wife were not hurt and were cooperating with the investigation. The criminal was not so lucky, he was in critical condition but expected to survive.

Rob- Want to bet on the results of the toxicology tests?
Tracy – Why are you answering your door at 0500?


Craigslist transaction gone bad

Matthew Barry wanted an iPhone. Andre Smith claimed he had one for sale and arranged to meet Barry at a south Florida CVS store.

After the money was exchanged, there was an argument as Barry claimed that Smith and a friend were trying to take off with both the phone and the cash. As Barry attempted to exit his vehicle, he was blocked by Smith and his accomplice.

Barry ran into the CVS, frantically yelling to employees to call 911. Surveillance video showed Smith and friend follow him into the store.

According to police, Barry warned Smith that he was has a concealed weapons permit and was carrying, but Smith and friend replied that they too were armed.

“Surveillance video also shows Smith pursuing Barry around different displays at the front of the store,” Davie, Florida Police said. “Mr. Barry is able to separate himself and push Smith away from him, physically push him away, and he’s able to retrieve a gun that he has on him and he fires several rounds striking Smith.”

Smith died at a nearby hospital. Records show that he had a criminal history including charges for domestic violence and various misdemeanors.

No charges have been filed as of this time.

Lions and Pigs and Bears, Oh My

We have had stories in Defensive Gun Uses about wild boars and mountain lions near the house. Recently it was a grizzly bear which a man had to shoot on his front porch.

The incident happened in Montana near Yellowstone National Park. The sow grizzly was likely more than 15 years old. It broke through a metal door to get into a garage where an elk carcass was hanging.

The homeowner heard the ruckus. He grabbed a gun and when onto the front porch to see what was going on.

There stood a bear not 10 paces from him.

The man told Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks investigators that the bear turned and began to approached him. He shot the bear dead.

They found bloody paw prints around the property including within 10 feet of the front door and on the living room window.

The investigators said that the garage was properly secured and the homeowner had done everything correctly.

This sow had been trapped by researchers in the past but did not have history of run-ins with people. It is also important to remember that bears are still wandering around and trying to fatten up before hibernating for the winter.


We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Listener e-mail discussion

Email #1


Hey my earlier e-mail must have been lost.

After grpc wondering if the average person is going to be welcome and find the event interesting or if it will be all over my head. I listen to you and other 2a podcasts and practice pogo. I know it has been there before but Chicago???? Really????? Will we have hr38 passed before then?? What’s it going to cost me Gary if it has not passed to get an out of state permit and how far in advance will I need to take the class?

Always enjoy the show,


Barron, WI


Email #2


I have had 2 high points 9c, still have one. It’s a good starter gun for people that can’t afford glocks, 1911’s, and all these other high dollar guns every podcast talks about. My whole family learned to shoot on a high point. Only problems we ever had was with cheap ammo. Winchester white box from walmart shoots fine and it’s cheap. To heavy for everyday carry but i have done it. My wife and I do carry every day but we carry a ruger LC9’s now with spare mags.
Love your show
Jay from Nebraska.


Tracy – Jay: Kudos to you and your family for taking responsibility for your own safety and carrying a gun. I’m glad you have upgraded from a HiPoint to a Ruger. If budget is an issue when considering a firearm, I would urge you to please consider a QUALITY USED FIREARM with a reliable track record, such as a police trade-in Glock or a Smith and Wesson. Why? Because your life may just depend on it. While you listen to me wax poetic on the accuracy of my 1911s on a weekly basis, my everyday carry gun is a Glock. Why? Because of its proven reliability. Police trade-ins can be found at such stores as GT Distributors.


John – You can find some great bargains on Reddit on the /gundeals subreddit. I agree with Tracy regarding buying used as well.


Paul – I know a few people who have owned Hi-Point and the reliability just isn’t there





  1. Arkansas

, 2.







Only residents of the states listed above have been approved by the Illinois State Police to apply for

an Illinois Non

believes you c

Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- I’m sure you’ve noticed that politicians and news announcers lie to us. They will say anything in order to keep our attention. Being ignored ends their careers. The truth is inconsequential, as long as they seem sympathetic and relevant. If the sun comes out, they need another government program to stop sunburn. They need a government program to stop wrinkled skin if it rains. They need more gun control, like more background checks, if a murderer kills people with a gun. They never said their policies would actually work and make us safer. They only need to sound good. It works for them asl long as the politician and the news announcers look good and sound good.  The article is called, You are not Safe, and you Never Were.


My articles are up at Clash Daily, at Ammoland and at my blog, slow facts dot wordpress dot com.  John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money.


I have a number of short posts up but nothing worth going in depth about. I will have an after action report post up about MAG-20 in the coming week or so. That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.




Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank Dr. John Edeen for joining us today.  So for Amy, Tracy, Belle, Jae, Dana, Douglas, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, Craig, and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Tracy: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.


Episode 427 – Tiffany Johnson

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/Episode20427.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- Interview Segment 1: Tiffany Johnson Interview Part 1

4- Interview Segment 2: Tiffany Johnson Interview Part 2

5- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:


1- Introduction

Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast powered by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Monday, October 30th, 2017, I’m Paul Lathrop

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we talk with Tiffany Johnson about minorities in the gun community.

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll talk about a woman in South Carolina who refused to be quiet…to the home invader’s dismay.

Tracy: I’m Tracy Thronburg, and tonight we have no gun news.

Belle:  I’m Belle McCormack, and one of our DGU’s starts with a carjacking at a gas station.

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in one of our DGUs we talk about a cigarette thief that brought a knife to a gunfight… so climb aboard

Belle: strap in

John : and hang on!

Paul:  episode 427 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob- Bill Frady and I talked about Self-Defense Gun Stories.  That was on his Lock and Load Radio program. Amanda Suffecool and I recorded another Episode of Self-Defense Gun Stories. Dustin Salomon and I were guests on the Safety Solutions Academy podcast with Paul Carlson. That was interesting as we tried to figure out what instruction works for both students and teachers. I’ve been in contact with one of our listeners who wanted to talk about training.
I also went for a run. Not very far, but I wanted to make my heart beat and make me sweat. It is a first step.


John- I missed last show because I was a flower girl wrangler. For age 2 ½, Olivia did just fine in her aunt’s wedding. Now to gun stuff. I have booked our hotel and flight for the SHOT Show. I’m still waiting for the media registration to open. This coming weekend I will be taking MAG-20 with Massad Ayoob in Charlotte, NC. I’ll have a full report for the next show.


Tracy-  I spent part of my Saturday taking a private lesson from USPSA grand master, Karl Rehn, working on some speed skills for my upcoming MAG-120 class. Always looking for a way to solve shooters’ problems, in my case little hands with really short thumbs, Karl decided a right-sided magazine catch could prove very helpful in speeding up my reloads. I have an order in with Mitch at Bulletworks.com for an aftermarket right-sided mag catch for my STI Trojan. Stay tuned for updates. Other than that, I’ve just taught some lessons and been a good citizen.


Belle- Took a Level 2: Def HG at FAS, just for the trigger time and to learn how to teach it better from a couple of my favorite instructors. Getting ready to close out the 2017 training season and start prepping for 2018.




Paul/Susan Trip to Washington, quitting smoking.


Listeners FB group.


Promo about PSP patches

Promo about upcoming training classes here.



2- News


House Bill violates the Second Amendment

On Friday, November 3rd, Massachusetts Lieutenant Governor Karyn Polito signed House Bill 4008 into law. He was acting on behalf of Governor Charlie Baker. A provision in H.4008 prohibits the possession of “bump stocks” and “trigger cranks.” Violations of this provision by merely possessing these accessories carry excessive punishments.  In addition to the possibility of life imprisonment, the minimum mandatory sentence is 18 months imprisonment. Second Amendment advocates are scrambling to fight this bill.

Walmart Shooting

Several shoppers screamed and ran for cover inside the Walmart in Thornton when a gunman opened fire in random directions. The suspect, 47-year-old Scott Ostrem, killed three people. Some shoppers pulled out their own handguns during the shootings in self-defense. The authorities complained about the five hour delay in identifying the number and identity of the assailants. The officers didn’t feel physically threatened. The investigators reviewed the surveillance footage by following each individual with a firearm until they could eliminate them as a suspect. Thornton police spokesman Victor Avila would not elaborate on whether any individuals were detained or tested for gunshot residue. He did not say if anyone other than the suspect had fired shots during the incident. Darlene Jackson, a truck driver, said she was in the toy section of the store when she heard the gunshots. Although she owns weapons, she didn’t have hers on hand at the time. She and her husband will be attending a shooting range to practice. She had been horrified that other shoppers drew their guns, but did not confront the killer.

Almost Tarred and Feathered

According to neighbors, U.S. Sen. Rand Paul was mowing his lawn outside his Bowling Green, Ky., home when he was intentionally attacked by an irate neighbor. Rene Boucher, age 59 is a registered Democrat according to the Daily Caller. A different neighbor told local news station WNKY-TV that Boucher and Paul nursed their ongoing feud over the corner of property they share. Boucher was charged with one count of fourth degree assault for the minor injury. He was taken to the nearby Warren County Detention Center, where he was being held on $5,000 bail for the Class A misdemeanor. A Facebook account said to be maintained by Boucher contained multiple anti-Trump postings.

“Senator Paul was blindsided and the victim of an assault,” Kelsey Cooper, a spokeswoman for Paul, said in a statement to the Hill. “The assailant was arrested, and it is now a matter for the police. Senator Paul is fine.”


Dog Eat Dog World

Chicago Police say 19-year-old Terrion Pouncy robbed a South Side hot dog stand at gunpoint about 6 a.m. on Halloween. Pouncy pulled out his gun, demanded cash from two employees, and pressed the gun to the head of a 39-year-old worker. The victim called for his co-worker to hand over the cash from the register. They passed their wallets and a stack of singles to Pouncy, but the bucket tipped and bills went flying. The robber stooped over to collect the cash even though he continued to point the gun at the workers. He replaced the gun to his waistband and shifted the gun as he ran out. He apparently pulled the trigger which fired a bullet striking him in the penis. He was unable to run further because of the pain. Pouncy was arrested at the Oak Lawn hospital not long after he was found slumped on the steps of a home across the street from a West Pullman restaurant. Surveillance cameras captured video and audio of the robbery, his struggle across the the street, his stop on a bench, and his collapse at the nearby house. Police recovered the wallets Pouncy had allegedly stolen from the two men, as well as the .38 caliber pistol. Pouncy’s blood-stained boxers match the underwear he had on in the surveillance video. The video clearly shows the pattern on the fabric when the teen bent over to collect the money that had fallen to the floor.


Ex-Employee Seeks Last PayCheck

Police said an armed man between 35 and 40 years old, entered Lawry’s The Prime Rib in the 100 block of East Ontario and restrained several employees who were in a locker room at the steakhouse. The former employee knew his way around the building, took the employees’ cell phones and announced the armed robbery. A 28-year-old man interrupted the robbery, prompting the gunman to fire his weapon, according to authorities. The victim was shot in his right arm and transported to Northwestern Memorial Hospital in stable condition. The suspect fled on foot but was found by police a short time later. Authorities said the man was taken into custody and a weapon was recovered. An investigation remained ongoing Monday morning.


Media Taunts America

A man entered a church in Sutherland Springs, Texas. He killed and injured a lot of people that he probably knew. The killer’s rampage was only halted when an armed citizen “engaged” him. The killer was bad-conduct discharged from the military as opposed to being dishonorably discharged. Due to his domestic assault, he was still banned from buying guns. He was willing to break the law to procure guns. He additionally broke the law by committing mass murder. After the reports surfaced of the mass shooting, TV reporters comforted themselves with their usual demand about new legislation on guns.  CNN’s Jim Acosta used every TV appearance on Sunday to mention that after the Las Vegas massacre, Trump suggested talk of new gun control should wait until the dust settles. That conversation, Acosta repeatedly complained, has “never occurred.”

NBC News’s Chris Jansing, who is currently traveling with the president in Japan, used the opportunity to tout the country’s “restrictive” gun control laws.

Even though MSNBC’s terror analyst, Malcolm Nance, is a gun owner, he said, “The Second Amendment in this case has nullified the right to live for many people in this church and I think a national discussion has to happen. It’s not too — we constantly run away from it but we’ll keep doing this until we have that discussion.”

MSNBC contributor Jim Cavanaugh likewise used his appearances in the moments after the massacre to hype gun control. Cavanaugh said. “…And we can’t get even the Congress to give us one sentence that we can’t have bump stocks.” In another appearance, Cavanaugh says that America has no choice and that passing new gun control measures “has to be done.”


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest Tiffany Johnson.



3- Interview 1

Tiffany Johnson- Do black and white gun culture want to mix?


We already have a number of separate gun cultures. For example, waterfowl hunting, game hunting, target shooting, the gun sports, collecting, re-enacting. What does it mean to have some blacks and whites who want separate gun cultures based on race?


Tracy- We need to be united, not divided, in our “crusade” for gun rights. What can I, as a middle-aged, white woman, do to reach out to my black brothers and sisters of the gun culture?

Rob- Are there different needs you see between the two cultures?

Tiffany- We all need the basics. “Blind spots” between the two cultures.

White gun culture is politically conservative. Leave that baggage behind.

Black gun culture wants to hear about the racist roots of gun control.


Belle- It is human nature to categorize things in order to understand them. Pointing out that so often things are, as you said “blind spots” or lack of exposure is such an important point. I think changing the ‘lingo’ from racism to naivety is an awesome distinction. Thank you. Voicing what is important to the smaller groups we want to include is so important. If we are “blind” to it, and no one says it, how can we fix it? How do you suggest we as instructors encourage any given  minority group to join in the activity, whether it be training, competing, what have you?


Tiffany – go to your intended audience, actively look for locations where black people live, local YMCA, black church, people at your job – pure self-defense, which is a human right



Are the minority gun cultures separate but equal, separate but welcome, or are they inseparable?


Do we want diversity to include exclusivity, or can members move freely between the two cultures?


Who will bridge the gap for those who feel alienated in one culture but want to move between both cultures?




5- DGUs  (at beginning) These discussions are NOT legal advice. Some of us are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive Gun Use segment is intended as information, NOT as training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.


Standing in Jail

Tracy – Samuel Jeter thought the Spartanburg, South Carolina, mother and daughter were going to be easy victims.  Recently, he broke into their home and hid in the bathroom.

Shortly after midnight, Katrina Walker’s 24-year-old daughter spotted Jeter standing in the bathroom holding a finger to his lips indicating for her to be quiet.  Her daughter instead started to scream, and when Walker came running to see what was the matter, Jeter tackled her.

Jeter demanded money from the women.  Walker’s daughter instead grabbed her gun and cocked it.  Jeter decided this was his clue to get out of Dodge. As Jeter ran, the 24 year-old began to shoot.

Police responded to the 12:35 AM call to find Walker and her daughter sitting on the front porch.  Walker was crying and her daughter was holding her 9millimeter firearm.

The officers used a K-9 officer to track Jeter to the backyard where they found him lying unresponsive..  He had been struck 4 times in the buttocks.

The story said he was sitting in jail but we wonder “Is he sitting or standing?”

Paul – All is well that ends well but…


Rob- This was a potentially lethal shot. There are not safe places to shoot someone who is not a lethal threat to you.


Cornered Clerk – Belle

The 30 year old cigarette thief found out you don’t bring a knife to a gunfight.  He walked into a Williamsburg Virginia 7-11 armed with a knife and swiped a couple packs of cigarettes then backed the clerk into a corner.  He demanded the clerk open the register.

The 56 year old clerk then drew his own gun and the suspect fled on foot.  The clerk was a concealed carry permit holder.

A man that matched the description of the suspect was located in the area and taken into custody.  A knife was also found nearby as well.

Clinton Frazer has been charged with petit larceny and felony armed robbery.


Belle- Its always a preferred outcome when the mere display of the firearm is enough to stop the threat.


Rob- It seems strange that the clerk drew a gun and did not shoot.

John – Good Samaritan stops carjacking

Joanna Avalos is happy she had a good Samaritan near by the other day.  About 7 AM, an armed man walked up to her in the gas station parking lot and demanded her vehicle with two young kids inside.

As Avalos recalled, “He pulled out the gun and said, ‘Get out of your car! I’m taking your car!’”

The carjacker fumbled with the keys.  He could not get the car started.  After his frustration grew, he ran after her, grabbed her and threw her to the ground.  It turned out she had two sets of keys for the Tahoe.

The security footage is grainy but it shows the two children and their mother running into a convenience store after being chased by the man with a gun.  The kids were already inside when a clerk grabs their mother and pulls her into the store.

Avalos says another clerk ran after the carjacker with a gun and shot him after the robber fired at him.  Police said the suspect, Courtney Johnson, led police on a short chase in the stolen SUV before crashing it into a couple parked cars.  He had gunshot wounds to his arm and abdomen.

Johnson has been arrested and the investigation is ongoing.  As for the Tahoe, Avalos is not sure she wants it back.  With all the trauma around the incident, she doesn’t think it is a good time to keep the car.

Paul – we are NOT the Police

Rob- This woman is lucky he didn’t take the car AND the kids.

Bring your own gun to a gunfight.


We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.


Rob- Gun Quotes- To paraphrase  We cannot sit idly by in Texas and not be concerned about what happens in New Jersey. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality.. tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one of us directly, affects all of us indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial “outside agitator” idea.  Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds.  Original quote from Martin Luther King, letters from a Birmingham Jail



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Listener e-mail discussion


Hi, guys:


I found one of Paul’s comments regarding deporting illegal immigrants to be a bit of puzzle.


He said that illegal aliens who get arrested for felonies should be immediately deported.  In effect, arrest = guilt.


Putting the immigration question aside for the purposes of discussion, I find such a comment to be a bit hard to comprehend when it comes from someone who understands full well (I hope!) that police can….and do…arrest perfectly innocent people without legitimate cause.


Keep up the good work.  I listen to every episode now.




Rob- Paul, one of our listeners has been exchanging e-mail with me about training methods.  Thank you, Alen.


Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- Gun laws are a fraud. They are confidence scheme. The politicians who advocate for gun control say that these laws will keep us safe. When these laws fail, as they always do, then the confidence men claim that they need more from us. They need more money, more votes, and more laws. I looked at the recent attacks in Las Vegas and in Maryland. The article is called Gun Laws Failed, and People Died. My articles are up at Clash Daily, at Ammoland and at my blog, slow facts dot wordpress dot com.


John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money.


John- Among the many posts I made, I’d like to point out two. First, you may have heard that 17 state attorneys general have put out a letter opposing national reciprocity. While I can’t speak for all of them, Mark Herring of VA and Josh Stein of NC are hypocrites. Both of their states have universal recognition of any other state’s permit. Herring got over $1 million from Mike Bloomberg in his first election and has gotten substantial money from him this year. The other post is about the San Francisco 49ers who are donating $500,000 for anti-gun TV commercials. They are encouraging other NFL teams to join them. Combine this with the whole kneeling controversy and the NFL is on the highway to hell. As a contrast look at the World Series. Every player stands with his hat over his heart for the National Anthem.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.


Paul – I have come to a bit of a decision with the direction of the show and of my personal like for the next several months. As most of you know I had an incident in Nebraska a little over 18 months ago. There was fundraising done that covered part of the costs and I am eternally grateful for that.


However I still have 3 outstanding personal loans that need to be repaid as well as my personal money situation is not in the greatest shape.


I am a Dave Ramsey fan of sorts, and one of the sayings that he uses a lot is “There is a great place to go when you are broke and that is to work.” So starting tomorrow that is what I am going to do. We have been recording the show on a when I am home basis and that just isn’t fair to you listeners. We don’t have a regular release schedule for the show and it is hard to book guests on the basis of  “we could do this next Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday can you be available to us all three evenings?


So this is what is going to happen going forward. I have a GREAT team of people that work with me on the show, I am going to let them do what they do best. We will record on Monday evenings and if I can be here I will. I won’t be here for most of them. I am planning on heading out tomorrow and the next time that I spend more than 1 day at home I will have paid everyone back and have built up a cushion.


I am not quitting and the show is not going away. I am just not going to be on the air a whole lot until I have made my world square again.




Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank (Guests) for joining us today.  So for Amy, Tracy, Belle, Jae, Dana, Douglas, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, Craig, and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Belle: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.


Episode 426 – Sarah Cade

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/Episode_426.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- News Segment

3- Interview Segment 1: Sarah Cade Interview Part 1

4- Interview Segment 2: Sarah Cade Interview Part 2

5- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:


1- Introduction

Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast powered by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Sunday, the 21st of October, 2017, I’m Paul Lathrop.

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we hear from Sarah Cade about being a proud political liberal and a gun owner.

Susan: I’m Susan Lathrop, and we have to wonder why Yahoo Finance confuses insurance with murder.

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in one of our DGUs a concealed carrier was walking down the street in Detroit when he was attacked by an armed robber. That turned out just the way you’d expect.. so climb aboard

Rob: strap in

Susan: and hang on!

Paul:  episode 426 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob- I talked with a local State Police officer. I was a casual conversation. I told him we were carrying. Bill Frady and I talked about Self-Defense Gun Stories on his Lock and Load Radio program. I record another episode tomorrow with Tony Simon. Carried every day, but only wrote one letter to each of my Senators.




Promo about upcoming training classes here.


2- News


Media Anti Gun Bias Shows in a Yahoo Finance article.

On October 19th Yahoo Finance came out with an article whose headline dropped more than a few jaws. The article was titled “’Murder insurance’ or protection in self-defense cases?”


The gist of the article is that since the NRA is bad and they now offer insurance, that the insurance must be bad too. It explains, badly, that carry guard was launched in the spring and now  people can buy murder insurance. They quote a representative of Guns Down, a recently formed gun control group as saying  “The reason I call it murder insurance is because if you look at the way this is marketed, it’s really sold in the context of ‘There’s a threat around every corner, dear mostly-white NRA member,’ and that threat is either a black man or a brown man or some other kind of person of color, So when you inevitably have to use your gun to defend yourself from this threat around every corner, you have insurance to protect you.”


Throughout the article there were no quotes from anyone with the NRA, or USCCA, who was the only other entity mentioned in the article that offers any type of protection for gun owners.


Unfortunately this poorly researched article is what we should expect from the major media and why we treat what we do here at the Polite Society Podcast so seriously.


Rob- With one article, you smear whites, gun owners, armed self-defense, and the NRA. I don’t think I could fit more stereotypes into an article if I tried.


Rob- We are violent assailants who are looking for an excuse to murder. Smell the bigotry.


Study shows background check laws are ineffective

A Fox News article released October 17th shows that gun control laws that require background checks for all purchases of firearms are largely ineffective. The following is directly from the Fox News article.


Gun violence experts from the Center for Gun Policy and Research and the Violence Prevention Research Program conducted a study in Washington state, Colorado and Delaware to analyze whether state laws requiring more background checks actually resulted in more checks.

The results, published in medical journal Injury Prevention, suggest the laws had little impact.

Delaware was the only state that saw apparent results, with an increase ranging from 22 to 34 percent based on the type of firearm. But according to the study, “no overall changes were observed in Washington and Colorado.”


The study said data “external to the study” suggested Washington saw a “modest, but consistent” increase in background checks for private-party sales, and Colorado saw a similar increase in checks for non-gun show sales.


Garen Wintemute, one of the study’s authors, told The Guardian “These aren’t the results I hoped to see. I hoped to see an effect. But it’s much more important to see what’s actually happened,”


So what happened?


The study does not reach a definitive conclusion as to why background checks did not jump — but it could be a combination of poor enforcement and people choosing not to follow the law.

“Non-compliance may explain the lack of an overall increase in background checks in Washington and Colorado,” the report said.


Rob- The article also talked about Delaware, which did show an increase in Background checks..and an increase in their crime rate.  Oops.

We hear a call for more background checks after each mass murder..after the murderer passed his background checks.  Sigh.

Paul – I want to give kudos to the researcher in that he was admittedly going for anti gun result and went ahead and published anyway


Gun Quotes- Then he said to them, But now he that hath a bag, let him take it, and likewise a scrip, and he that hath none, let him sell his coat, and buy a sword. Jesus of Nazareth, Luke 22:36


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest (Name).



3- Interview 1 Sarah Cade

I’m the enemy.

Sarah, do you hear Democrat politicians and democrat activists supporting the right to own guns?

Do you much outreach to other Democrats?

You reach out to your friends. Do you ever call out the liberal media for misrepresenting you?



4- Interview 2

A friend wrote this. If is saves one life. Shayna reminds us of the costs of gun control.


Dear Gun Control Activists,

Do you know who Carol Bowne is?

Since you advocate for more gun control, you absolutely should know who she is.

When you go to sleep at night, her face should be in your dreams.

When you pray, if you pray, she should be in your prayers.

You should repeat her name every single time you promote laws that restrict law abiding citizens from having and carrying guns.

Carol Bowne.

Carol Bowne died waiting for the state of New Jersey, specifically her local police department, to allow her to protect herself with a gun.

Had national reciprocity been passed, had shall-issue concealed carry been the law of the land, Carol would still be alive.

Carol Bowne died at the hands of her violent ex because you allowed her to. Because you advocate that women like her shouldn’t be allowed to choose how they protect themselves.

I am advocating for choice.

Choice. So that women like me are not raped because I am not allowed to carry my gun when getting my education, though I can carry my gun everywhere else I go.

Choice. So that women like Carol can protect themselves before it’s too late when the police department is incapable of providing protection.

Make no mistake, Carol Bowne died BECAUSE of you and people like you.

Say her name.


Shayna Lopez-Rivas is a rape survivor.  She condemns so called “gun-free” zones, and advocates for the right to choose self-defense. Shayna’s original article is here.


Amanda Collins- Rape survivor, disarmed by state law on her campus.

Gary – Mary Shepard

Paul – I want to mention that just as liberals are not necessarily our enemy in gun rights A republican (Paul Ryan)

5- DGUs  (at beginning) These discussions are NOT legal advice. Some of us are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive Gun Use segment is intended as information, NOT as training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.


Green Light

Recently on Detroit’s East side, a robbery didn’t go as planned and the mother of the robber was left wanting to know if her son was ok.


It was Sunday afternoon and the intended victim and his cousin decided to go down to the local market.  As they exited their car, Sanchez Quinn approached them and pointed a pistol at the men.  Little did Quinn know that the intended victim was a Concealed Pistol License holder and was carrying.


As Quinn approached the men, his target saw the pistol and his one thought was to get to his weapon and defend himself.  Video of the incident shows the CPL holder slap Quinn’s gun with his support hand and pull his firearm and start shooting.  Quinn returned fire.  The man’s cousin foolishly runs between the two of them on the video.  In the end, Quinn was shot several times and was taken down by the good guy.  The cousin was also shot 4 times by “getting” caught in the crossfire.


The entire incident was caught on high definition video.  In 2016 Detroit, Comcast Cable and local businesses started a program called Project Green Light.  The list of businesses which are participating numbers over 100 now.  The business participating gets wired for high speed internet and have high definition cameras installed.  The camera’s feed goes to the local police precinct.  The businesses also install an green light in a prominent position to let the public know that they are participating in the project.

Police have reviewed this video and have determined that it is a self-defense shooting but the case is still open.  Quinn and the cousin are expected to recover from their wounds.  Meanwhile, Quinn’s mother was left trying to get in to see her son who was in police custody with two officers standing outside his hospital door.

Rob- If you don’t know what you’d do during an attack, you won’t have time to figure it out.


Pistol Packing Grandmother

Diane McIntire was stopping at the local mall in Moline Illinois to get some vitamins. McIntire is the mother of 3 and grandmother of 11 and has had her carry permit for 3 years. Floyd May appeared to be waiting for the bus at that mall. As McIntire parked her truck, suddenly May was at her door attacking with a kitchen knife. McIntire fought back. She kicked him in the chest and pushed him but in the scuffle, she received a nasty gash on her arm near the elbow.


May forced her to drive about 20 minutes out of town on Old Route 2.  During the drive he threw her cell phone out the window. At one point, he grabbed an old shirt and tied it around her arm to try to stop the bleeding.  He also apologized for cutting her.


During the drive she got him to tell her that he had just gotten out of a mental health facility and had spent time in prison.  May admitted that this was kidnapping and that she could identify him.  What May didn’t know was that McIntire was a concealed carry permit owner.  Her gun was in the center console.


May had her pull off on a gravel road near Port Byron and stop.  He got out of the truck and dropped his knife.  While he was picking it up, McIntire used the distraction to her advantage and pulled her .380 from the console.


McIntire got out of the truck and pointed the gun at his chest.  She told him to stay away from her or he would get shot. McIntire then stated that she didn’t want to take a human life but if need be, she would pull the trigger.


May retreated to a local house and McIntire got in her truck and drove herself to a local hospital.  She received 23 stitches for the gash on her arm. She called the police from the hospital.  Based on her description, they arrested May. He is in jail on with a half million dollar bail.


Paul – Grandma that is flexible enough to kick someone in the chest…


Rob- She lived in Missouri and was shopping in Illinois and visiting family. She’d lived in the quad city area before. She was car carrying and hoping it was legal. She admitted she didn’t know the details of Illinois gun laws.


Rob- Illinois basicly does NOT have reciprocity.


Good guy with a gun stops kidnapping

Las Vegas has been in the news lately.  This story comes to us from Sin City.

It was a habit for Justin Pearson to grab his gun, not heroism.  A short time later, it would stop a kidnapping.


He heard a loud noise outside his Las Vegas home and when Pearson went to investigate, a large BMW went zooming by doing about 60 in a 25. Pearson called 911 immediately.


As he does anytime he leaves the house, he put his gun on his hip.  The 911 operator asked for a plate number and Pearson started down the street to get it.  The driver had lost control of the car and had nearly run into a house.  The car stopped, turned around and stopped at a neighbor’s house where a 6 year old boy was standing.


The man grabs the boy and starts trying to stuff him into the car.  Pearson, who stands 6 foot 4 but makes a beanpole look stocky, knew he was not going to be able to physically stop the kidnapper, who was about the same height and weighed about 250 pounds.


Pearson pulled up his shirt and put his hand on his H and K VP9 and yelled at the man to stop.  The man turned and looked at him and after a short pause, decided to just drive away.  Police arrived at the location about 17 minutes later.


Police confirmed the details of Pearson’s story and that the kidnapper was the boy’s biological father.


This isn’t the first time that Pearson has been involved in a no shoot DGU.  Years ago, a guy pulled a knife on a friend of his and he drew his firearm and the kid ran away.


Rob- Most PDs wouldn’t record this as a DGU.



We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Listener e-mail discussion


Julian wants to stir the pot.


Sorry this is a little old but I’m catching up on the pc. A couple episodes back pretty much all of you agreed that USA – AR over Foreign AK. That’s great to hear and since i know you wouldn’t want to be hypocrites I’m sure you’re all selling your foreign glocks for some US guns (maybe 1911s?).




Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- I posted Shayna’s article on my slow facts blog. About 1500 people came to see it. That doesn’t count it being on Ammoland and at Clash Daily. I wrote a couple of posts this week, but come and read Shayna’s article first. That is at slow facts dot wordpress dot com.  John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.




Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank (Guests) for joining us today.  So for Amy, Tracy, Belle, Jae, Dana, Douglas, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, Craig, and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Susan: be aware,

Paul: and we’ll see you down the road.


Episode 425 – Kathy Jackson

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/Episode20425.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- News Segment 1

3- Interview Segment 1: Kathy Jackson Interview Part 1

4- Interview Segment 2: Kathy Jackson Interview Part 2

5- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:

Special RANT


1- Introduction

Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast powered by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Thursday, October 12th, 2017, I’m Paul Lathrop

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we will talk about a recent immigrant who turned in his guns.

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll talk about how being a pro-second amendment organization shouldn’t surrender our guns either.

Tracy: I’m Tracy Thronburg, and tonight Belle and I will talk about the superiority of 1911s versus non-1911s.

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in one of our DGU’s we talk about 4 legged threats .. so climb aboard

Belle: strap in

Amy : and hang on!

Paul:  episode 425 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.

1911 vs?  This might convince me.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob- Bill Frady and I talked about Self-Defense Gun Stories.  That was on his Lock and Load Radio program.  Paul Carlson, Dustin Salomon and I talked about Dustin’s books, Building Shooters and Mentoring Shooters. That conversation comes out on Paul’s podcast- Safety Solutions. There are big changes in store for the training industry. I talked with Bill Chachkes on his Firearms Chat podcast and we talked about politics and instruction. Jeff Street and I recorded another Episode of Self-Defense Gun Stories. The Texas concealed handgun association re-published one of my articles.  Hi, Mollie.


John- I worked the Grass Roots North Carolina booth at the Asheville Gun Show this past weekend. Post-Las Vegas, it looked like attendance was up slightly. Paul Valone, president of GRNC and a speaker at GRPC, was there as well. We did get a few new members signed up. As the previous gun show coordinator wanted to step aside, I volunteered to be the GRNC co-coordinator for the Asheville Gun Show.

Paul – We should have Paul Valone on again!



Amy-Just catching up after a week on the road. While at GRPC, I was on Riding Shotgun with Charlie (Charlie Cook’s YouTube channel/podcast) and we visited the spot JFK was shot. It was neat to see!After GRPC, I spent some time visiting family in Texas and spent a few days in Atlanta, GA setting up classes with a few ranges there. I’m also currently working on getting ready to launch 3-Gun Nation’s Training program.


Tracy- I just got back from Indiana, where I shot the MAG-80 class this past week. There were 17 of us in class, and I’m proud to report that I tied Mas at his own game, shooting a 300/300 on the MAG double-speed qualification, earning a signed $1 bill from the man, the myth, and the legend. This was my second time this year to earn a signed $1 from Massad Ayoob. We did lots of handgun retention and disarming in this class, which got me out of my comfort zone. I’m really looking forward to the MAG-120 this December in Live Oak, Florida, where we’ll shoot a MAG qualification at triple speed!


Belle-Helped with Level 4 Advanced Def HG, did the role player bit, one of my fave parts of training, we had 7 students pass our HG Master Test, the most I have seen in a class. Took a much needed weekend off and went hiking with the family. Took the first registrations for the PSP ASIC for next July!




John – Just a reminder that PSP patches are still available. They are $10 each or 2 for $18. For PayPal, use john@politicsandguns.com. If you want to send a check, use that same email address.


Promo about upcoming training classes here.


2- News 1


A tool for the media surrenders

The gun control debate is influenced by the media with fear stories. Directly after a mass shooting at the Route 91 Harvest Festival in Nevada, stories flourished. “I think the easiest way to stop mass shootings from happening in America is to take guns away from civilians,” Pring told Fox. Jonathan Pring from London, England, is now a resident in Phoenix, running a coffee shop and driving a doubledecker bus. Despite his British roots, Pring had bought guns, but surrendered them after hearing about the 59 deceased. He turned his guns into the Phoenix Police and publicly urged others to surrender their weapons.

The original article about Pring is no longer accessible on FOX. Instead of going directly to the urgent news story, we are led in circles to access it. Other news sites include the same stories. However, positive comments turned into negative comments. Pring received death threats after doing the ‘did the right thing’. He deleted his facebook post and left town with his family.


John – I’m sorry he got death threats. However, Mr. Pring was too used to being a subject and doesn’t realize what it means to be a citizen.


Belle- it sounds like a publicity stunt to me, but better he let them go, anyone who doesn’t want them shouldn’t have them.

Amy-publicity stunt

Rob- I’ll taking your donations and I’ll find your unwanted guns a good home.

John – Under AZ law, those guns must be sold at auction.


Paul – .380 and .22LR


Second Amendment Advocates Waves White Flag.

Life long supporters of the second amendment have surrendered their opinions and semi-auto weapons to give up on citizens rights. Caleb Keeter, the guitarist in the Josh Abbott band, changed his mind because he witnessed first hand the festival mass shooting. Keeter tweeted: ‘We couldn’t touch [the shooter] for fear the police might think we were part of the massacre and shoot us […] We need gun control RIGHT. NOW’. After Keeter turned 180 degrees, so did Ashton Kutcher, star of That 70s Show. The self-proclaimed ‘lifelong gun owner’ had once tweeted a photo of Demi Moore, his then wife, firing an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle. His recent article in A Plus, admits he thinks keeping guns on this course will not change anything for the better. He wants changes for gun control.

The Tragedy in Vegas isn’t the first time that supporters have changed their minds. The Las Vegas shooting isn’t the first time that prominent second-amendment supporters have changed their minds. In 2015, the racially motivated mass-shooting in Charleston changed the mind of a conservative evangelical pastor from New Jersey. Rob Schenck,announced ‘The gun is almost an invitation to give into fear, and fear should not be a controlling element in the life of a Christian’. In 2012, Iraq veteran Liam Madden wrote an op-ed in Salon. He explained how the shootings in Newtown’s elementary school had completely shaken his worldview.


Amy- People forget the reason the Second Amendment exists. It’s not only about a permit holder/gun owner being able to stop crime.

Rob- I did the math.  Turning in your guns might save a life, and it will cost 21.  You are 21 times more likely to be killed by your government than by a criminal or mass murderer.  Your children are over 5000 times more likely to be killed by their government than by a firearms accident.


Bank Treats Hero Like Robber

Authorities arrested suspected robber Nelson Jones, but continue to ask for help from the public. Malcolm Jones remains at large and might have been injured during the crime. Both men have been indicted on federal charges for illegal use of a firearm during a crime of violence. The prosecutor’s office paid $2,500 to Crime Stoppers for a reward for information. The two suspects were stopped by off duty police officer Carl Rauschenberger.

Carl worked with the Mount St. Joseph Police Department for 15 years. He has 10 years of experience with the Greenhills Police Department. His employee record includes working for the Cincinnati Police Department for 28 years. However, his bravery, valor, and swift decision to protect innocent lives in a bank was not good enough for the bank. They asked him to bank elsewhere.


Gun Quotes- A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition. Rudyard Kipling


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest (Name).



3- Illegal immigration-


Amy – I agree with Paul that Criminals need to be deported, If an immigrant is only here to bring crime to our country, and not adding value, they are not making a contribution to this country. I feel strongly about this because I come from a family of immigrants. My family is from the Philippines. In World War 2, my Grandfather joined the United States Navy (guerilla Filipinos fighting Japan my family

Rob- Amy, your family are a legal immigrant. There is a difference between a legal and illegal immigrant. You can’t profit by doing something illegal, so the money paid to illegals is not deductible on taxes.

John – There is a way to get workers for field work. During WWII, the US had a guest worker program. As to immigration policy, we should look North to Canada. They give preference to those with special skills or those who are willing to invest substantial money in the Canadian economy to create jobs.

Paul – Illegal immigrants DO NOT PAY Federal taxes

4- Interview 2


Kathy Jackson Holster Safety


Belle- Why do you think there is an aversion to the more traditionally “safe” holsters? What do you think has pulled folks away from the tried and true- Hard sided, leather or kydex, strongside hip, in or outside the waistband? And why are so many women or men(to a lesser degree) who say they want to CC so unwilling to modify their wardrobe? Isn’t that just a necessary sacrifice?


Amy – This is an interesting topic. Over the last few years, there has been an explosion of holsters marketed for women. What do you think of the the “ace bandage” type you were referring to now offering a “trigger guard” insert? They started doing that after receiving that same feedback you were mentioning.


Belle- aren’t all these alternate positions more suited for BUG rather than primary firearms?


5- DGUs  (at beginning) Welcome back to the DGU segment of the Polite Society Podcast powered by the firearms policy coalition. These discussions are NOT legal advice. Some of us are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive Gun Use segment is intended as information, NOT as training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.


Cougar picked wrong RV park

John – Last week Casey’s Riverside RV park in Oregon had a cougar prowling the neighborhood.  The 100 pound male mountain lion was full grown but thin. It was searching the neighborhood for the feral cats.  He came around every other night in his quest for a meal.

Part of the park was mobile homes and it ventured into the backyard of the wrong home.  The man who shot the cougar has parents who live there and when it came into their backyard, he shot at it.  He fired 2 shots and one hit the big cat.  It ran down into the trees and they tracked it to where it laid dead.

The man called the Oregon State Police.  The wildlife trooper who responded did not issue any citations and took the carcass.

The Department of Fish and Wildlife spokeswoman said the shooting was allowed under state law.  “The person who took the cougar was legal to do so under statutes that allow killing of cougars causing damage or public safety issues,” said Michelle Dennehy.

Belle-where did other round go?


The hazards of working at convenience stores

Amy – Jennifer Wertz didn’t feel safe working at the Circle K in Albuquerque.  There has been a recent rash of robberies in the area including recently at a nearby 7-11.

Wertz was at work at the gas station when she heard about the 7-11 robbery and retrieved her gun from her car.  She got nervous when a customer from the 7-11 came in and told her about the robbery.  The recent rash of robberies had been going on and the Circle K had done nothing to protect her.

She was visibly displaying her gun on her hip and when an armed robber came into the station a short time after getting her gun and the decision to do so paid off.

“He was screaming, he point the gun in my face,” she said, “and I just point, cock and shoot, and protect myself.”

The 23-year-old robber ran out of the gas station and collapsed in the parking lot with critical injuries.

For Wertz, the decision to defend herself had consequences.  It was a violation of company policy so she was suspended for two weeks.  She quit her job and went looking for employment elsewhere.

When news of her DGU and the company’s reaction to it hit the news, a GoFundMe page was set up and raised over $70,000 for her.  {I thought I had heard another store had offered her a job but I might be getting DGU’s mixed up – Dana}

Rob- I’d like to see the Circle K held liable for injuries to their disarmed clerks.  The employees are insured, so ey also assume a similar liability.

Tracy – no one is making the person take the job, knowing that it is a dangerous job with a higher likelihood of getting robbed.

Amy – Is it the company’s responsibility to keep their employees safe? By not allowing them to carry, they are not giving the employees a way to defend themselves from a situation that, unfortunately, does happen in convenience stores (armed robberies).


Wrong Old Guy- Belle

We have said it before, don’t mess with the old man.  Recently in Florida, a 81-year-old homeowner was lying in bed when he heard someone knocking on the door and ringing the doorbell.  He looked out the window and did not recognize the man so he did not open his door.

The man put on a pair of gloves and went to the back of the house.

The homeowner grabbed his .22 caliber pistol when he heard a windows break and then saw the man clearing the shattered glass away.

He said he feared for his wife’s and his safety so he fired three or four shots and the would be intruder.  The man then fled to his pick up and the homeowner fired several more shots as the truck sped away.

Although it is not known if he hit the intruder, it is possible that he was either grazed or shot.  “One time I heard him say, ‘Oh,’” the victim told the 911 operator.

The criminal was still being sought.

Paul –

Belle – Lets use a reasonable defensive cal.

Tracy – any gun is better than no gun!

Amy- Don’t try robbing the Security guy

A man was “conducting security” at the Grand Strand Baptist Church in Myrtle Beach when a man approached him and asked for change for a $20.  The intended victim pulled out his wallet to offer change when the man pulled a gun and while pointing it at the victim’s stomach, demanded the wallet.  The victim handed over his money and as the robber began to walk away, he pulled his own weapon.

The robber then fired a shot at the car door.  The victim then shot back and as the robber tried to continue the fight his gun jammed.

The victim “emptied his weapon” according to the police report.  The report did not state how many times he was hit.  After being shot, he ran to the parking lot of a nearby Ruby Tuesday and told a witness that he had been shot and needed to go to the hospital.

He then collapsed .  When police arrived at the scene, a witness flagged them down and pointed the officer to a gun on the side of the road.  Another woman then pointed the officer to where the robber was lying on the ground where he had collapsed.  A third witness to the shooting, also an off-duty EMT, was helping the suspect until on-duty EMT’s arrived.

Rob- Criminals interview their victims.  “Hey, may, do you have the time, have change, have directions.”
The answer is no, go away.  The exception is if you’re working security.


Tracy – Break the OODA loop. we don’t shoot when the threat is gone.


Belle- Dont let strangers in your bubble! There is no reason in our culture for people you don’t know to get in your personal space. If you’re keeping your bubble intact, about half the time, you have a bit more time to decide and act.You can be polite, or not, from a comfortable distance.

The sad truth is, churches are another one of those places that violence happens and we know that. That should encourage a change in behavior.


We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Listener e-mail discussion

Text message #1


Al the Iron Range trucker here. Not to stir the pot (sarcasm font here) my wife carries a Sig 238. Yes 1911 in a 380! Hated the shield. I goofed on the gross weight of the truck last text. It is 830,000 pounds.


Tracy – any gun is better than no gun, but not my choice of caliber, nor my choice of handgun.


Belle-the 938 is not bad for people with limited hand strength, slide moves like butter.


Text message #2


I love listening to your show, you have a lot of great content. I don’t mean to complain but whoever keeps their microphone up their nose is very distracting with the sniffing and breathing. It drowns out some of your interviews and distracts from what others are saying. I’ve skipped a few shows because I couldn’t keep listening to it. Thanks for listening to my rant, Mike.


Email from Mark in Chicago


Dear Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am a very new shooter. Let me thank you for all the work you put into the podcast — it has been a very useful resource for a newcomer.

In my short acquaintance with the gun culture, I have found that instructors and experienced shooters recite the litany of gun safety rules frequently. And sometimes they talk about negligent discharges that occur when the rules are broken. But when they do, it is almost always about some *other* fool’s accident. That’s why I thought this post by Dr James Williams on his excellent Tactical Anatomy blog was so gutsy:


In this post Dr Williams, a very experienced shooter indeed, talks about the three negligent discharges that he himself has popped off in his long life as a shooting enthusiast, and what he learned from them.

I wonder if any of the hosts have caused ADs during their lives as shooters, and would be willing to discuss them on air for the good purpose of scaring newbies like me straight.

Keep up the good work.



Tracy – Ive taken Dr. Williams’ shooting with x-ray vision class. If you have the opportunity to train with him, seize the opportunity.


Rob- I was practicing for competition and put one off the target and into the berm.  One went over went over the berm.


Gary –


Paul – I have NEVER admitted this, but I did have a round go off that I didn’t intend to fire


Amy – Fortunately, I have never had an AD, but I know people that have. I credit the military with drilling weapons safety into my mind, In the Marines, we literally carried unloaded rifles with us everywhere and were constantly trigger finger checking and checking muzzle awareness , but I am not saying military personnel have never had any AD’s happen. It’s important to talk about these things so we don’t get complacent regarding the rules of firearm safety.


John – I, like Amy, have been fortunate not to have an AD. I think it was luck more than anything else.

Belle- Like Paul, if we are being honest here, the only ND i have had was the split second earlier than expected slip into the sad part of the target. I agree with John tho, that it is just luck.


Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- I posted 9 articles since our last episode. One is called, Why Republicans Ignore the Gun Vote. Money and political factionalism have marginalized gun owners. The Republican leadership would rather oppose President Trump than support the grassroots. Most politicians are in it for the money, and the Republican leadership certainly is. My articles are up at Clash Daily, at Ammoland and at my blog, slow facts dot wordpress dot com.  John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money


John – In the post-Las Vegas shooting days, the gun banners have gone into hyper-drive. I have many posts up about their plans to ban bump fire stocks. For our purposes, it is important to remember that the devil is in the details. The way these bills are written, upgrading your trigger or changing the buffer weight in your AR could be construed to allow a semi-auto rifle to increase its rate of fire. So, for example, if Amy has anything but a gritty mil-spec trigger on her 3Gun rifle, it could be illegal for her to even possess that trigger. The House bill doesn’t even mention bump fire stocks but just says any part that is meant to increase the rate of fire. The sad thing is that you have co-sponsors of the bill who should be our friends – A rated and endorsed by the NRA. All of this means we have to get off our butts and start calling, faxing, emailing, and writing our congressional critters. Now.


Amy – Yes! The devil is in the details!

I have not written anything new but will be ready to announce my blog on website www.ccwstyle.com by next episode. Currently, in the middle of a lot of changes there.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.




Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank (Guests) for joining us today.  So for Amy, Tracy, Belle, Jae, Dana, Douglas, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, Craig, and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Amy: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Tracy: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.


(after show close) How could we have made this episode better?


(DO NOT READ)Look at the shooters club by Bob Mayne and Ben Branam.  For $75.00 a year, $6.25 a month, you get 24/7 access to some fantastic training and audio podcasts that you can’t get anywhere else.  Subscribing from the link in our show notes helps Bob and Ben as well as helps us here at the Polite Society Podcast.


Episode 375 – Interviews with Larry Piekarski and Grant Cunnigham

Full Episode Download:

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- News Segment 1

3- Interview Segment 1: Guest  Larry Piekarski

4- Interview Segment 2: Guest Grant Cunningham

5- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:


1- Introduction

“An armed society is a polite society.. and this is the Polite Society Podcast where we support and report on civilian self-defense.”

Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast sponsored by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Thursday April 28th 2016, I’m Paul Lathrop.

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we talk about a gun buy-back event in Chicago, and a gun sell-back in Arizona

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll talk with  Larry Piekarski about using SIRT pistols in training

Rachel: I’m Rachel Malone, and we also welcome back Grant Cunningham for an interview tonight.

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in our DGU segment we talk about a DGU gone very wrong   .. so climb aboard

Rachel: strap in

John : and hang on!

Paul:  episode 375 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob- I recorded another episode of SDGS.  Bloomberg wants my website, Everytown for Gun Safety.wordpress.com.  If there are lawyers in the house I want them to call me.  I was on lock and load radio with Bill Frady.


John – Barb and I will be taking off on Friday afternoon for the East Tennessee Bloggershoot held in Oak Ridge, TN. I have been busy assembling what firearms I want to take. The event is being organized by Dennis Badurina of Dragon Leatherworks. You may have seen some of his work on the TV shows NCIS and NCIS New Orleans. It will be fun to catch up with bloggers who I haven’t seen since the NRA Annual Meeting in Nashville.


Rachel – I went to the range TWICE! The second time, all the pistol bays were occupied with a Steel Challenge match. They let me jump in and shoot a stage. I had enough fun that I intend to go back next week for the whole thing.


A note for anyone attending the Republican Party of Texas state convention in Dallas in May: Conventions are chaotic and confusing. There are a few ways you can make an impact instead of wandering aimlessly and having no idea what’s happening. (1) Attend about 4 cycles (over 8 years) and eventually pick up on how it works.  (2) Tag along with someone you trust and do what they do. You’ll still never really figure it out but hopefully if they voted right then you did too. (3) Get some training ahead of time and get things done the first time (or, this time). I recommend Jeremy Blosser’s FANTASTIC training. Video link: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/85953256


Gary –

Friend of the show, Miggy wrote a blog post this week about some Oklahoma instructors encouraging the legislators to pass a bill requiring more firearm training. As John Lott has said training requirements and expensive permits most affect the people that are most likely to need a firearm to protect themselves.


Rob- Choose your own training and trainers.


Paul/Susan – Paul – shot some to prepare for the MAG 40 , Had a court date and things went VERY well



Promo about upcoming training classes here.



2- News 1


Obama Continues To Press Pro-Criminal Initiatives   (Charlie’s Rant) (News/ Editorial)

During these endless months of Obama’s Long Goodbye, our boyish President seems unconcerned with the faltering economy, imploding Obamacare, Islamic terrorism, or an incoherent Foreign Policy, but is focused on fundamentally transforming the criminal’s place in American society.


Obama has long ranted about the number of minorities in prison, blaming a racist society instead of the perpetrators. He blamed the police for the imbalance, and through the DOJ’s regulations created the Ferguson Effect and Fetal Policing. Now, Loretta Lynch’s DOJ is requiring judges to throw away the law when dealing with minority criminals.


His administration is working to force the mainstreaming of felons, allowing them federal jobs, unfettered housing access and pushing toward restored rights, despite the very real risks of these criminals. He’s pardoned hundreds of violent drug dealers and reduce the sentences of hundreds of thousands more. It does appear that criminals are Obama’s latest prized and protected demographic – at an obvious cost to law-abiding Americans.  


In his latest Saturday Weekly Address, Obama continued to champion the felons. Delivered in his usual condescending tone, da Prez lectured the nation on the unfairness of criminal justice system and again pushed the need to radically reform American society. As is his wont, he threw out several unsupported claims, misrepresented statistics, all leavened by a smattering of  bald-faced lies. A prime example is his declaration that  “We know that simply locking people up doesn’t make communities safer.” We certainly do NOT know that. His statement is shown to be a lie by decades of experience with targeted enforcement, mandated sentencing, three-strikes laws, and . It was a tour-de-force of every misguided policy from this administration.  


     As in all of Obama policies, the question is “Why?” It’s easy to see the racialist motive: the Democrat minority coalition is showing some deep fractures, and the long solid black and Latino vote is showing signs of straying. More insidious are the efforts to radically remake American society by undermining as many institutions as possible. Regardless, these policies will likely remake America in the image of Chicago, New York, Baltimore, Philadelphia and San Francisco where Progressive policies have already resulted in a crime riddled environment.  And if Obama and Hillary can disarm the nation as they want, our country could be a very dangerous place indeed.  

Stay armed – stay vigilant – stay capable. Now more than ever.        


Rob- President Obama supports any demographic group who predominantly votes democratic.  That is the Chicago way.  The president doesn’t mind breaking the law to do so.

John – We have seen the start of this in Virginia with Gov. Terry McAuliffe just pardoned 200,000 felons and restored their rights including voting.


Gary –


What if we had a well publicized gun buy-back program in Chicago.. And the criminals ignored it.  You see, criminals don’t’ get their guns from honest gun owners.  People who don’t shoot are the ones who turn in old 22 rifles in exchange for gift cards.  I’m sorry to burst your anti-gun bubble, but criminal don’t use 22 caliber bolt action rifles to commit crimes..but the boy scouts use them to teach gun safety to beginning shooters.  Which group are you disarming with a gun-buy back?


Chicago Police Superintendent Eddie Johnson said “Many of the people who would come to a gun buy-back event aren’t the ones causing problems.”  We call that a firm grasp of the obvious.


Rob- Political theater to promote politicians!

John –


Meanwhile, Arizona, Sheriff Joe Arpaio was selling the guns he collected from criminals.  He then used the $140,000 in gun sales to buy ammunition for his volunteer posse.  Well, he bought some radios as well as nearly 500 cases of ammo in 9mm, .45, and .223.  The guns were sold to gun stores and from there to private purchasers.


Rob- See, no 40 cal.


Colorado Democrats Kill Repeal of Large Cap Mag Ban


There was hope that Colorado’s large or standard capacity magazine ban would be repealed. The Colorado Senate had voted to repeal the ban in mid-April. The bill then was sent to the House State, Veterans, and Military Affairs Committee which would have to approve it before it could go to the whole House of Representatives. Late on Monday night, this committee killed the bill on a party line vote. The committee is headed by Su Ryden who is also the House Majority Whip.


John – Ryden is now running for the State Senate. I wonder how much money she’ll get from Bloomberg for her campaign.


Long time publisher of gun magazines Harris Publishing shutting down


If you are in the checkout line at a convenience store or grocery store, or are perusing magazines to take aboard the next flight, you have probably looked over or bought a Harris Publications magazine. Some of the titles they publish are Combat Handguns, Guns and Weapons, Survivors Edge and Tactical Weapons among many others. Today they announced that they are shutting down as of April 29th. This is an unfortunate sign of the times as publishers everywhere are competing with the likes of blogs, YouTube and Podcasts. It is unfortunate that a large name in the gun world is shutting the doors.


John – It’s sad and it’s not sad. Publications like Recoil which is aimed at a younger audience seem to be doing well. Likewise, more narrowly tailored publications like Handloader, Rifle, and American Handgunner seem on solid footing. This announcement merely shows that the market works.


DOJ To Post “Smart Gun” Request for Comment Tomorrow


The Department of Justice is seeking public comments on their test procedures to “to determine whether the addition of a smart gun technology does or does not significantly reduce the reliability of the firearm system compared to existing firearms.” It will be posted to the Federal Register on Friday, April 29th and comments will close 45 days later. They are calling this the Gun Safety Technology Challenge.


John – My suggestion is just to follow the Four Rules. In the meantime, I think it is time for our listeners, especially those that are engineers, to submit comments. Rob, that means you!


Rob- Marketers lie.  Start with legislative security details and school resource officers where THEIR children go to school.  Start with LEOs.


John –


Gun Quotes  The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground. – Thomas Jefferson




4- Interview 1 –  Larry Piekarski

SIRT Pistols – Firearms Training at Gunsense.  SIRT training.  iMarksman system.


Larry, we recently had a conversation about using SIRT pistols in conjunction with training and you told us that you have some experience with that. How have you been using them?  NRA basic pistol.


Rob- Do you let your students move with the SIRT pistol?


Rob- Lasers are good for distance shooting at night.


5- Interview 2 – Grant Cunningham


Motorcycles and guns-

You don’t have a third hand to use a firearm when you’re on the road.  There is a lot of keyboard heroes who give bad advice.

Bikes have an advantage in acceleration, deceleration, maneuverability and size.

Suburbia offers you an advantage because a bike can create distance.  Pull into a gas station.  Distance is your defense.

Consider cross draw when you’re riding.. Or a fanny pack.


6- DGUs


Store Owner Fires a McLatchy, Causing Armed Robbers To Flee

The owner of Bridgeport, Connecticut minimart found himself staring down the barrels of two robbers. He returned the favor, with interest – causing the two thugs to flee for their lives.

Two masked and hooded men walked into the store with their guns already drawn. As they stepped inside, one even cocked his weapon. Before words could be exchanged, the store owner reached for his gun and fired a warning shot into the ceiling, sending the bandits stumbling outside. “How am I gonna be scared because when you do a business you’re not supposed to be scared of anything. You make a living,” said the owner, Mohamed Yasir. A licensed firearm holder confronted the suspects outside the store and shots were exchanged. Apparently, none of the shots connected with anything but the store’s window.


Yasir has been there before, he’s been robbed 8 times in 25 years. The last time was just four weeks ago. “I know they came to rob me, they came to shoot me or whatever but always you for to protect yourself. I got family to feed,” Yasir said. The resolute storeholder had already shot two assailants in the past.


Bridgeport Police Captain Brian Fitzgerald said; “We would like our victims or store clerks to just cooperate and hand them the money. But in this case, you have people coming into your store and they’re armed, you have a means to defend yourself, you believe your life is in immediate threat then obviously you have a right to defend yourself.”

While we commend store owner Yasir for his bravery, a warning shot while under the gun cannot be recommended. In that deadly situation, the first shot should have been aimed to stop the attack. And the passerby who injected himself into a situation that was rapidly ending was also foolhardy. If you don’t absolutely need to fire to save your life YOU. DON’T. NEED. TO. FIRE. Yasir might also want to think about a safer location for his business. Someday, he might not be so lucky.

Foresight and training, people. Get some.  


Rob- The gun stays in the holster until it needs to work.


Rachel- Texas penal code chapter 9, use of force – “A threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor’s purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.”


Jilted Lover Breaks Into Woman’s Home – And Gets Shot

Last week, we told you about an ex-boyfriend’s obsession that led to a crime spree of home-invasions, kidnapping, arson, interstate flight, multiple assaults, and an attempted murder that was finally ended by a good samaritan with a gun. This week, we bring you a similar story; however, one where the gun was used at the beginning – to a much happier end.   

A jilted Columbia, South Carolina area man decided to visit his ex-girlfriend very early one Sunday morning. He didn’t ring the doorbell; he broke in through a window. However, the intruder found that his former paramour and future victim had an… “acquaintance” staying with her. And that man was armed.

In defense of their lives, the replacement shot the invader in the upper body. The attack stopped almost before it had begun. Police arrived to take the ex to the local hospital, where his condition has not been disclosed. Investigators are trying to determine if there was domestic abuse in the former couple’s past.

The new boyfriend is not expected to face anything but praise for stopping this assault in the name of love.  


Rob- We’ve heard stories like this before.  Move on.


Three on One Home Invasion – Criminal Gets the Slug
Three thugs have been charged with armed home invasion and attempted murder. The trio fired several shots within the home, but it was the homeowner that landed his response.  

Just outside Youngsville, Louisiana, three thugs tried an early morning home invasion. They surprised a sleeping homeowner who was awake enough to hit one of the criminals in the exchange of gunfire. The suspects escaped to a hospital, where they were arrested by police. The one suspect’s wound was minor enough, and all three were charged with attempted second-degree murder in addition to aggravated burglary.

It should be noted that the homeowner’s firearm allowed him to survive a surprise home invasion by three armed and prepared thugs, winning his life against fearsome odds. Without the firearm, the homeowner would have been at the non-existent mercy of the three criminals; a clear validation of the need to be armed.

You listening, Hillary?  


Rob- Would that work in California where a firearm has to be locked when not in use?

Gary –

John – A Clinton utopia? Is that a new name for Hell?

Paul – Sleep inertia

Rachel- yes


One Suspect Dead, One Wounded in Home Invasion
An 80-year-old man shot two robbers who had forced their way into his home.  One of them was taken to the hospital, the other to the morgue.

The elderly gentleman opened his Fairmont, West Virginia door to a distraught young  woman pleading to use his phone in an emergency. His chivalry was abused when two unseen, black-clad accomplices forced the open door and threatened the man with a pistol. In that desperate situation, the homeowner pulled his own gun and shot the two suspects. Police arrived to find one man lying in the road with a gunshot to the face and neck. He was pronounced dead at the scene. His partner was found across the street suffering from an abdominal wound. The 23-year-old female shill escaped but was later captured by the police. Their pistol was found to be a realistic airsoft or BB gun.  

John Grossklaus, 28, will survive his injury. He has been charged with robbery, with many other charges to follow. He has also been booked for an earlier strong arm robbery that put the victim is the hospital. That earlier assault, in partnership with the deceased, occurred a mere 30 minutes before the home invasion. Unsurprisingly, the burglar, Grossklaus, has also been charged with parole violations. Whitney Kabiru, 23, was charged with robbery and conspiracy.


In their press release, police stated the homeowner had reason to believe that his use of force was necessary to defend himself against a perceived imminent use of unlawful deadly force. No charges are expected for elderly man.

We can certainly learn a lot from this encounter. The firearm allowed an elderly man to stand against two younger, more powerful, more violent men. On body carry allowed an immediate, lifesaving response. Wearing the gun even late in the night at home (POGO) kept a bad situation from becoming even worse. And finally, DON’T allow anyone you don’t have reason to trust access to your home – especially after midnight. The elderly gentleman’s civility could have cost him his life – except for the equalizer of his firearm.


Paul – I want to reiterate the on body carry importance


A Bad Shoot Will Likely Cost a Homeowner and Benefit a Criminal

Most of our DGUs usually feature stories where the victim uses a gun correctly to defend lives. We would be remiss if we didn’t also include instances where a firearm was used incorrectly, in this case to the detriment of the victim and the benefit of the criminal.     


In Portland, Indiana, a criminal convicted of burglarizing a garage is suing the homeowner who shot him. David McLaughlin, 33, fired at the thief running from his garage. One of the bullets hit David Bailey, 31, in the left arm as he ran down the alley. A Jay County Superior Court jury found McLaughlin guilty of criminal recklessness in the shooting of the fleeing suspect. He was sentenced to 60 days in jail, with four months of home detention. The criminal Bailey was given a sentence of only three-years home detention with no jail time.

Now, Bailey is suing homeowner McLaughlin for “serious and permanent damage” to his arm, asking for “a monetary award in an amount sufficient to compensate for all damages.”


The use of a firearm is a very serious business. In most states, self-defense is the ONLY reason deadly force can be allowed. Defense of property is seldom a sufficient reason. As a rule, only an immediate, credible, realistic threat to life or limb can justify a shooting. And if the encounter has ended, and the suspect is trying to escape, the armed citizen cannot fire. Adequate training, like Massad Ayoob’s MAG 40, would have informed the man of what he could — and most importantly must not — do. That training could have saved an honest man a jail sentence and having to give his money to a crook.  


Paul – Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it

Rob- You can’t let your emotions drive your trigger finger.  Training will teach you when not to stop.  Advanced practice will reinforce that decision.

Rachel- I’ve been told Texas law allows greater use of force (including deadly force) to protect property than any other state (or most others). Still, know the law and know what is worth deadly force to you. (http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm, subsection D)

Gary –

John – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy


Rob- insurance

We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



When we come back we have an answer to last week’s question about shot timers 🙂

7- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Listener e-mail discussion


Jake wrote in about Ham Radios


You guys briefly mentioned the Baofeng handheld radio last episode in the context of emergency preparedness.  As someone who recently got into ham radio for prepping purposes and who got a Baofeng, I wanted to elaborate on what you guys were saying a bit.


With handheld radios in general and the Baofeng in particular, you need to understand the limits of your equipment.  You will not be using this rig to talk to China, or even the next town over.  Your effective range with this unit is perhaps 3-6 miles, or around 40-80 miles if you are on high ground or talking to a repeater that has good line of sight, though this is all extremely dependent on terrain.  Still, the frequencies it can listen to are in common use by police and rescue units, and radios like this are often used in disaster scenarios.  It also can listen to FM radio and NOAA weather stations, which are very useful for natural disasters.


Regarding licensing, there is a specific exemption in the FCC rules that allows anyone to use any radio equipment if it is the best way to save someone’s life or safety, regardless of licensing.  That said, much like the DGU you discussed last week, you don’t want your first time using your emergency equipment to be during a crisis.  The Baofeng can be difficult to operate and program, and takes a lot more expertise than your little walkie-talkies you used as a kid.  Without a license, it is impossible to verify if you programmed the radio right, so while you can certainly listen, you won’t know if anyone can hear you talk until it’s too late.  The technician license to operate the Baofeng is very easy to get, though, and costs less than $20, so if you plan on using one for emergencies, PLEASE get a license and learn how to use it.  This has the side benefit of putting you in contact with other operators who can help you learn and maybe give you some suggestions as to your next step.


Keep up the good work,

Jake from Iowa


John – I agree. Get the license. I did – KJ4HTR or Kilo Juliet 4 Hotel Tango Romeo in Ham-speak. Ham Clubs will train you how to use your radio and radios in general. The American Radio Relay League and their members want to help.

Gary –


Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob-  I was sick this week.  So I’d lay in bed for a few hours and then post on my blog.  I wrote about honest New Yorkers having to bribe police in order to get a gun.  I wrote about government officials in the United States and in France saying they citizens should be disarmed and wait for help if they are attacked.  Those articles are up at Clash Daily, at Ammoland, and at my blog-  slow facts dot wordpress dot com.


John, tell us what’s new at your blog, only guns and money


Sorry to hear that you were sick! I posted a story on Saturday morning about actor Brad Pitt co-hosting an event for the Brady Campaign. This is the same Brad Pitt who gave Angelina Jolie a $400,000 indoor shooting range for their French chateau. This plus some earlier statements gave the misimpression that Mr. Pitt was “good” on guns. Actually, he believes in gun for him and none for you peasants. I’d say this makes him a hypocrite. While I hate to toot my own horn, my post was published 2-3 days before Breitbart and other sites picked up the story.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.


We would like to thank Charlie Foxtrot for writing up show notes for us. Even though you don’t hear him on the air he is certainly part of what you do hear. Look at his blog at not one more gun law dot blogspot dot com


Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank Larry Piekarski and Grant Cunningham for joining us today.  So for Charlie Foxtrot, Gary, Rob, John, Rachel and Susan,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Rachel: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.

Episode 373 Laura Carno


Full Episode Download:

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- News Segment

3- Interview Segment 1:  Laura Carno

4- Interview Segment 2: Craig DeLuz

5- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:


1- Introduction

“An armed society is a polite society.. and this is the Polite Society Podcast where we support and report on civilian self-defense.”

Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast sponsored by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Thursday, April 14th 2016, I’m Paul Lathrop

John: I’m John Richardson and on tonight’s show we talk with Craig DeLuz of the Firearms Policy Coalition about proposed California firearms legislation

Jenna: I’m Jenna Meek and we will also talk with Laura Carno about her new book.

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and we will talk about the Northern Marianas Islands passing a one thousand dollar per handgun tax .. so climb aboard

Susan: strap in

John : and hang on!

Paul:  episode 373 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


JENNA – I have been teaching (when the weather allows, spring in CO is crazy!), writing, I finally got to take a class with John and Vicki Farnam a couple of weeks ago.


John – As I mentioned on the last podcast, I was going to spend the weekend at the Mother Earth News Fair in Asheville. I did and I had a good time. It attracted everyone from hippies in dreadlocks to vets who are into prepping and everyone in between. The only thing that could have made it better is if they had one building devoted to guns! I learned how to tan leather with and without the fur, how to make ginger beer, and, best of all, how to set up a small still.


In gun news, I had an order of AR lowers arrive one of which is going to be made into an AR pistol. It won’t exactly be a SBR but it will be as close as I can come without spending $200 and waiting 6 months! I do have a question for our listeners – has anyone ever used one of the pre-made NFA trusts that many of the dealer peddle for $120 or so? I’m debating going that route before July and the changes coming down the road.


Gary – What training do you have coming up?







Promo about upcoming training classes here.

Live promo – Concealment Solutions deal of the day.


Tease Northern Marianas story


2- News

Northern Marianas passes a strong anti gun law.

Last week we reported that the Marianas Islands had had their ban on handguns struck down. So they did what any freedom hating government would do, they imposed a $1000 per handgun tax. Although that was only the beginning. The new law that was passed unanimously in the Commonwealth Senate and signed by the Governor also creates a ban on all carry outside the home and creates a licensing system. Also banned are centerfire rifle cartridges larger than .223 and shotgun shells larger than .410.


Not to worry, the SAF is on the case. Allan Gottlieb told Guns.com that “Our SAF legal team is working on the next step. It seems that the anti-gun rights politicians never learn”


John – I fail to see how a tax of $1000 on a $500 handgun is constitutional. The power to tax is the power to destroy.


Colorado trying to roll back magazine restrictions


In a move almost the polar opposite of what we just reported from the Pacific Islands, the state of Colorado’s Senate passed a bill that would eliminate the magazine capacity restriction that became law recently. The bill now moves to the Colorado House. NRA-ILA is requesting that if you live in the Rocky Mountain state that you get in touch with your representative and urge them to support Senate bill 113.




After backing out of the presidential race Chris Christie actually does something almost right!


Guns.com reported on Monday that New Jersey Governor Chris Christie issued new guidelines for obtaining a handun license.  One of the several reforms listed in the story was the adding of “Serious threats” to the list of qualifying circumstances in the states may issue permitting process. Up until now the process should have been referred to as may, but almost definitely will not issue.


It is too early to tell whether this will actually make a difference in the state, but time certainly will tell. We would like to remind our Garden State listeners that as with any executive order these can be changed on a whim by the next Governor and so it is crucial to stay involved and keep working to elect pro gun politicians.


John – Christie seems to be getting better even though his Presidential ambitions have been shot down.


Virginia Governor Terry Mcauliffe is asking to get bitch slapped.


Bob Owens over at bearingarms.com reports that Virginia Governor Terry Mcauliffe vetoed legislation that would have allowed people who are victims of domestic violence and have a restraining order to get an instant carry permit.


Now victims of domestic violence must wait the far too long 45 days for the Virginia system to grind its way through the process of issuing a permit before they can defend themselves outside the home.


John – The only good thing I can say for Virginians is that they can open carry legally without a permit.


Tease Laura Carno interview




3- Interview 1-  Laura Carno


Tonight’s first interview is with Laura Carno. Laura has been a guest here many times and even helped co-host so most of our listeners should know her. Laura wrote a new book that just released. The title of the book is “Government Ruins Nearly Everything: Reclaiming Social Issues from Uncivil Servants “ Laura, thanks for coming back on the show.


First please tell us a little bit about your book. What are the “social issues” you cover?


Reducing gun violence is of interest to our listeners, tell us more about your approach to that.


You have been getting great reviews on Amazon, I would like to touch on just a few of them.


I made a big mistake when I bought this book…I ONLY BOUGHT TWO COPIES! Now I need to go back and buy some more to send to my friends.

What’s not to like about Laura Carno’s “Government Ruins Nearly Everything.” I liked the Parents Know Best section; I liked the Free Market section; I liked the Strong Marriages section. Actually, I liked the entire book.

Laura mentioned that Millennials want their freedoms. But I’ve observed Millennials want “free stuff.” Which is it? Someone has to pay for it. Laura gets it!

“Government Ruins Nearly Everything” is a must read for anyone who really cares


Second review


Clear thinking, chapter after chapter. Laura talks the right way about issues that usually get folks riled up. And when folks are riled up, they don’t listen to each other. She looks for real answers to some of the thorniest problems we face.

Laura frames issues in a way that’s bigger than a single topic, and gives real ideas for solutions that most people (politicians, especially!) are overlooking.

Practical, thought-provoking, optimistic, and surprisingly compassionate


It looks like you are getting fantastic feedback, I hope that the book’s sales are going as well as the reviews.


How long did the book take to write?


Are there more books on your horizon?


Where can people buy your book?




Tease Craig DeLuz interview

4- Interview 2-


5- DGUs


Home Invader Shot and Killed, Accomplices Charged With His Murder
An attempted invasion of a Columbus, Ohio condo resulted in the death of one robber and murder charges for his two accomplices. Nathaniel Easley, 24, was shot in the resident’s condo, staggered out into the complex and collapsed. Khomary Rand, 23, and Deshawn Lovejoy, 26, left their comrade on the pavement, but were arrested driving very erratically to elude capture, according to police. They have been charged with murder due to their participation in the crime that resulted in Easely’s death. During the altercation, a dog was also shot. The condo resident has not been charged nor identified for his or her protection.  

As an apparent result of his choices, Easley left behind his daughter; Nari “Elle, his parents and two siblings.


Elderly Man Shoots Invader
An elderly Missouri man had his lunch interrupted by three home invaders prepared for violence. Fortunately, he was dining with a firearm.


The man saw someone pull up very close to the house in a truck. The trio immediately started breaking down the front door. The startled resident ran back to the table where he had left his handgun. During that time, the three thugs broke open the door which was only held partially closed by a safety chain. The elderly man fired what he described as a warning shot and saw the pickup truck speed away.

In those confused moments, the homeowner arrived to find a man lying on his front porch. Police arrived a short time later and pronounce the man dead from a gunshot wound to the head. The deceased was found wearing gloves with an aluminum baseball bat nearby. The elderly man did not know the attacker, but the homeowner may know of him or his associates. Police are searching for the other two, and are fairly certain they know who they are.

By the evidence, it now seems that the elderly man prevented a robbery and perhaps much worse. Even though his shot was described as a warning shot, police believe he fired in fear for his life. At this time, the house guest is not expected to be charged; but the investigation is ongoing.

Warning shots are seldom a good idea. However, it seems this time the warning shot delivered a very pointed message, one that was justified by the facts.  


Paul –


Crime Spree Thwarted By Store Employee With a Gun
A criminal’s crime spree was interrupted by a store employee and her gun.  At least five Dayton, Ohio business had been robbed in short order by the same thug. However, things changed when he tried to rob the Sundeck Tanning Salon. Saying “I don’t want any trouble, just give me all the money,” the thief got only a gun to the face as the employee said I don’t think you’re going to get that money today.


The business owner said his employee was a little shaken, but it wasn’t enough to stop her from protecting their business. “She was really upset, but she’s not going to give up our money. This is our season. We’re a small family business. This is what we live off of and she’s not going to give that up.”

We applaud the woman who protected her herself and business with a gun, all without having to fire a shot. You listening out there, Shannon?  


Man Turns Gun on Home Invader

A 51-year-old Rochester man got home in time to defend his 16-year-old daughter from three invaders. However, in the gun-controlled paradise of New York State, he had to obtain the gun he used from one of the thugs.  

Around 10:30 at night, three masked and armed robbers broke into the home and began assaulting the young girl. The homeowner came home to this desperate situation. During the altercation, he was chased into a backyard and shot in the leg. The owner continued to fight and was able to wrestle a gun away from one of the thugs. That gun was used to incapacitate a suspect.

Police on patrol nearby heard the gunshot and were able to take the teenaged suspect into custody. The thug was hospitalized with facial injuries. The homeowner was hospitalized with non-life threatening injuries to his lower extremities. The victim’s daughter was also hospitalized for facial injuries. The two remaining invaders remain on the loose.


We congratulate the man for defending his daughter and his life. However, we wish he had the legal ability to carry and employ his own gun, rather than having to get one from the criminal. A criminal, who by the way, had no problem illegally possessing a gun in anti-gun New York.


We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Before we get to the email discussion, I want to ask a few things. First PLEASE keep emailing, calling, and texting! The email address is onair@politicsandguns.com. The Phone number to text or call to leave a voicemail is 605-215-1438. We really do need more feedback.


We got a voice mail from Mel in the midwest




Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


John – I don’t have any particular blog posts this week I want to point out. I’d just ask the listeners to go to onlygunsandmoney DOT blogspot DOT com to find my blog.


We would like to thank Charlie Foxtrot for writing up show notes for us. Even though you don’t hear him on the air he is certainly part of what you do hear. Look at his blog at not one more gun law dot blogspot dot com


Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  So for Charlie Foxtrot, Gary, Rob, John, Rachel and Susan,

(Paul, stop talking now.  NOW, damnit!)




Jenna: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Susan: be aware,

Johnl: and we’ll see you down the road.


(after show close) How could we have made this episode better?


(DO NOT READ)Look at the shooters club by Bob Mayne and Ben Branam.  For $75.00 a year, $6.25 a month, you get 24/7 access to some fantastic training and audio podcasts that you can’t get anywhere else.  Subscribing from the link in our show notes helps Bob and Ben as well as helps us here at the Polite Society Podcast.


(DO NOT READ)Join your local civil rights group like the New Jersey Second Amendment Society, Arizona Citizens Defense League, Gun Owners of California, Commonwealth Second Amendment,  Connecticut Citizens Defense League, Florida Carry, Georgia Carry, Georgia Gun Owners, Grass Roots North Carolina, Illinois Carry, Maryland Shall Issue,  Michigan Gun Owners , Michigan Open Carry, and  Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners.


There are Minnesota Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance,  Nebraska Firearms Owners Association,   Citizens for a Safer New Jersey, New York State Rifle & Pistol Association,  Palmetto Concealed Carry, Open Carry Texas, Texas Firearms Freedom, Texas State Rifle Association. Tennessee Firearms Association, Virginia Citizens Defense League, Virginia Open Carry,  West Virginia Citizens Defense League, wisconsingunowners.org, and Wyoming Gun Owners.


For our Canadian listeners, and their supporters, join the Canadian Shooting Sports Association and the Canadian National Firearms Association.  If YOUR state or local organization isn’t read each episode, then send us an email and we’ll add them!


(DO NOT READ)The Polite Society download app is out on Amazon for Android and the I-phone app is in I-tunes and it is called Podcast Box.  They are located by our old name, Politics and guns.  Hot links are in our show notes.


Episode 372 – Interview with Alex Kincaid and we get a little crazy in News 1

Full Episode Download:

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- News Segment

3- News 2 Segment

4- Interview: Alex Kincaid

5- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:


1- Introduction

“An armed society is a polite society.. and this is the Polite Society Podcast where we support and report on civilian self-defense.”

Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast sponsored by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Thursday April 7th 2016, I’m Paul Lathrop

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we talk with Alex Kincaid about recent court decisions affecting Idaho gun laws.

John: I’m John Richardson, We will also talk about my former home county in North Carolina that wanted to ban carry in county buildings and parks.

Rachel: I’m Rachel Malone and we’ll announce two more states which have passed Constitutional Carry!

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in one of our Defensive Gun Use stories, a woman interrupts a burglar who is coming into her child’s bedroom window, so climb aboard

Rachel: strap in

Rob : and hang on!

Paul:  episode 372 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob-  I carried every day and all day.  Dry fired at home and live fired at the range.  Released another episode of self defense gun stories with Jeff Street, and we had our 4000th download today.  I’m reading a book on the second amendment by William Weir.  I also received Laura Carno’s book, “Government ruins nearly everything”.  Voted for NRA board of directors.  Ballots are due May 1, so mail them now.


John – Since I was last on, I spent Easter with my granddaughter who is growing by leaps and bounds, blogged some, and worked. Oh, and I won an auction for a rifle that I think was made by the great gunsmith and wildcatter P. O. Ackley. I put my bid in not expecting to win and now it is being shipped to my local FFL. The rifle is in .256 Newton which means I will be reloading for it. The caliber dates from 1916 and was one of the first to break the 3000 ft/sec. Barrier.

This weekend I’ll be going to the Mother Earth News Fair. I know it sounds like Hippie Central but it does draw a lot of preppers. My sister in law will have a booth selling kid’s books.


Rachel – 3 weeks down, 1 to go for spring football (and having two kids around). Last week of middle school choir rehearsals and performances. Not a lot of sleep or shooting. However, I did swing by the A Girl & A Gun meeting a couple weeks ago, and I’ve taught several LTC and Beginner Pistol classes for Texas Tactical Training Institute. More scheduled: April 16 and 18.


Gary – What training do you have coming up?



Rob- South Africa dry fire vs flinch.



Computer issues – if you are registered for the MAG 40 in May, please email me so I have your contact information again.





Promo about upcoming training classes here.

Live promo – Concealment Solutions deal of the day.


2- News


Obama Administration Pro-Crime Initiatives

In the past weeks, the Obama administration has released a series of actions that have direct bearing on the citizens. Largely avoided by the media because of the third-rail nature of the racial politics, these initiatives certainly affect the safety of the Nation’s law abiding.  

First, Obama commuted the sentences of another 61 criminals. Most were involved in distribution of large amounts of illegal drugs, but one in five were also sentenced in part for gun crimes. Many others had their gun crimes dismissed as part of the plea deals that put them in prison. Those 61 join another 187 criminals who have benefited from Obama’s hypocritical approach to crime, where he is hard on the law-abiding gun owners and soft on the actual criminals.

Then, Obama’s Department of Housing and Urban Development issued a decree saying refusing to rent based on a criminal record is a form of racial discrimination. The Fair Housing Act is silent on criminals, but because Blacks and Latinos are arrested at a significantly higher rate than whites, HUD has stretched the law so landlords can no longer use a criminal record to screen applicants. The fact that a criminal record is often a predictor of other undesirable traits must be ignored according to the Federal bureaucracy. Landlords and mortgage providers who violate the administrative decree could face fines in the millions of dollars, depending on the scope of the alleged violations.


 Most troubling is the Obama’s Department of Justice’s nine-page letter to judges around the United States, warning them to limit prosecution of criminals, particularly those of minority status, or risk the loss of federal funding. Municipalities failing to toe the line could see the same type of federal investigations that Ferguson, Missouri endured after the police shooting of black teen Michael Brown. The fact that those shootings were largely found to have been justified, and the municipalities targeted are mostly minority controlled is ignored by the Obama administration.  


Obama’s new soft on crime approach directly affects the fabric of American society. It goes against the rule of law and most of the best practices of law enforcement. It reverses the Broken Window policing that has been shown to be so effective. Critically, it extends the hands-off “Ferguson Effect” that is responsible for so many inner city deaths in St Louis, Baltimore, Cleveland, LA and Chicago. Now, the entire nation is subject to the same enforced chaos. The eventual results are easily predictable.


We have alway suggested that our listeners should be prepared to defend their own lives, for when the government can not — or deliberately will not – defend them. Stay armed, stay vigilant, stay capable. Now, more than ever.


Rob-  $elective enforcement is like “may issue”.  It is a way to get campaign contributions and kickbacks.

John – Most violent crime is tried at the state level. I’d tell Loretta Lynch to keep her money. I’ll stop there because my next comment would not be appropriate for family friendly show.


NJ2AS Gets a Check From New Jersey
This had to have hurt the gun-controlled paradise of New Jersey: The so-called Garden

State had to cough-up a check to the New Jersey 2nd Amendment Society. Show friend Frank Fiamingo’s organization received a 100 thousand dollar check for legal fees associated with the state’s refusal to provide a Firearm Investigative Manual in an Open Public Records Act request. New Jersey refused the request in 2011, prompting the lawsuit and damage award. This is the first time in New Jersey history that the state had to write a check to a Second Amendment organization for legal fees. The NJ2AS will continue to fight for additional fees owed it, as well as the full, unredacted Firearm Investigative Manual.


You go, Frank!


John – I love it when anti-gun governments have to cough up cash to 2A organizations. The only part that bothers me is that it comes from all taxpayers and not just the government officials who broke the law.



Paul- let me bring you back up, Florida says that individual mayors and city and county representatives can be held personally liable for pre-empting state gun laws.


Last Handgun Ban in the United States Defeated

Another one bites the dust: the very last one. The last jurisdiction in America to ban handguns had its ban overturned. The Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands lost it’s prohibition of handguns in federal court. The court found the law violated the plaintiffs’ individual right to possess a handgun or other firearm for self-defense as guaranteed by the Second and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution. The plaintiff was attacked and beaten, resulting in injuries including two broken ribs, facial contusions, and a suspected broken orbital bone and eye socket. The court understandably found the law limited the plaintiff’s’ ability to protect themselves and their family in the event of violence.


Let’s see: sunshine, blue water, white sand, coconut drinks, and freedom — what’s not to like!


John – Saipan is the largest island in the Northern Mariana Islands. Let’s remember the over 3,000 Marines who died fighting for it during WW2 so that now they have the same constitutional rights as every other American.




Idaho Approves Constitutional Carry

Formerly famous only for potatoes, Idaho now has another claim to fame: it is now the ninth state to adopt Constitutional Carry! Governor Butch Otter signed Senate Bill 1389, the NRA-endorsed permitless carry legislation. On July 1st Idaho will become the ninth state to recognize a citizen’s ability to possess a concealed handgun for self-defense without government-mandated permitting and fees.


Congratulations, Mashers!

Rachel:  http://alexkincaid.com/index.php/law-blog/post/the-four-year-rickety-road-to-permitless-carry-in-idaho-how-the-people-of-idaho-made-it-happen


Iowans Approve Suppressor Act
Not to be outdone by Idaho’s sudden rush to sanity, Iowans have secured their ability to have suppressors. Governor Terry Branstad just signed the Hearing Protection Act, House File 2279, into law. In the past, Iowans have been denied the use of the commonly available safety equipment that reduces the sound of a gunshot. After three solid years of effort, the bill was passed through a split legislature, powered by a grassroots campaign of social media, e-mails, phone calls, letters and visits. Iowans now can apply to the federal government for the 200 dollar tax stamp, the same as the other 41 states allowing suppressors.   

Congratulations to the Iowa Firearms Coalition! We’re heartened that they are seeing this victory as only the first step in protecting and enhancing Iowa citizens 2nd Amendment Rights.  

John – Now it is time that the US Congress pass the Federal Hearing Protection Act.

Rachel – suppressors are the polite way of shooting

John – I did a blog post a few years ago that suppressors selling for as low as $39 in New Zealand.


Mississippi Votes For Constitutional Carry
After all the above stories, it’s easy to Imagine Mikey Bloomberg reaching for that gallon bottle of aspirin he keeps on the back of his golden commode. This story from Mississippi can only make it better! The Mississippi House has voted 85-35 to concur with Senate amendments to House Bill 786, sending the legislation to Governor Phil Bryant (R) for his expected signature.


The legislation has advanced despite months of misleading attacks by Bloomberg and his anti-gun shills in the Everytown for Gun Safety and Demanding Mommies groups. The legislation also prohibits state or local enforcement of federal executive orders or agency regulations not approved by Congress which conflict with the Constitution of the United States or the Mississippi Constitution. The act also allows church authorities to designate enhanced carry permit holders or those with military or law enforcement backgrounds to protect places of worship and receive the benefits of the state’s Castle Doctrine.

All in all, quite a package, Mississippi. Congratulations! And Mikey, save some aspirin for Shannon.  


Rob- Now I have to read the bills in the Louisiana legislature and see if we can get suppressors legalized.

Rachel: I was hoping Texas could make top 10 or 20…at this rate, we’ll be lucky to make top 45 for Constitutional Carry.

John – Thanks to the Senate committee which added constitutional carry to the bill and to the House for agreeing to these amendments.


Haywood County North Carolina Blinks

Citizens must be forever on-guard when their governments are in session. The good commissioners of Haywood County were considering an ordinance to ban all open and concealed carry in county buildings and parks. That was, until approximately 400 gun rights activists packed the meeting in a show of 1st and 2nd Amendment Freedom. Bloomberg’s astroturf North Carolinians Against Gun Violence failed to put up any credible presence, giving the day to the energized Grass Roots North Carolina group. The county quickly announced that the Haywood County Board of Commissioners will not take any action at their regularly scheduled meeting of Monday, April 4, 2016 on the proposed ordinances for Carrying of Concealed Weapons and Displaying of Firearms …

Congratulations to the GRNC and the pro-gun activists that saved Freedom in the North Carolina county!  Keep up the pressure until the commission drops the proposed ordinance entirely.  You can’t ever turn your back on those bastards.


John – I lived in Haywood County for 32 years before Barb and I got married. The commissioners also had under consideration an outdoor shooting range ordinance. It was so strict that virtually nowhere in the county would have qualified. What makes this even worse is that all police ranges would be exempted. This was because they would have been out of compliance with the new law which required the range be 300 from the property line and ¼ mile to the nearest occupied building.


While I didn’t attend the meeting, I did email the commissioners. I did get a response from Commissioner Kevin Ensley, the lone Republican on the board, who said he was in favor of carry in county buildings and parks.


Rachel: at my LTC classes, students always wonder “why that quirky restriction, and not another?” The legislature doesn’t examine every possible law they could make and pass what they want; they make their decision based on the small groups that make the most noise. Let’s be sure that’s us.

Rob- amen.  Stand up and make noise.

John – You nailed it.

Gun Quotes


John Kennedy, writing in 1960 posited “fears of governmental tyranny” as the impetus “which gave rise to the Second Amendment” to begin with. And although he believed it “unlikely” that such tyranny “[would] ever be a major danger to our nation,” he said “the Second Amendment will always be important.”

We’ll be right back with an interview with Alex Kincaid discussing recent changes to Idaho gun laws.


NEWS 2 – already recorded and edited –


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our defensive gun use.



3- Interview 1- Alex Kincaid

Alex is a firearms attorney, public speaker, second amendment advocate and author of Defending Your Right to Defend Yourself  Welcome Alex, did I get that right?

  1. Alex, Congratulations to Idaho for enacting permitless carry.  Someone posted an article saying that permitless carry is trouble for Idahoans.  Could you explain that article and your response?
  2. In Illinois the carry law says I can drive right onto school property with my concealed firearm, would this still be a federal violation for Illinois gun owners?
  3. Massad Ayoob makes a distinction between constitutional carry and permit less carry how do you see that issue?
  4. Permitless carry only applies to Idaho residents.
  5. Where can our listeners find out more about you?


4- Interview 2- Brandon Combs


5- DGUs


Dallas Fort Worth Woman Shoots One Invader – And Runs Out of Ammo

Many internet commandos point out that the average self-defense gunfight last less than 3 rounds. They use that fact to justify firearms with reduced round capacity. A Dallas-Fort Worth woman learned the fallacy of the law of averages when two invaders broke down her door.  The 61-year-old woman grabbed her gun and shot one of the intruders in the stomach. However, she ran out of bullets shooting at the second suspect. The uninjured burglar attacked her and beat her severely. “He must of heard me clicking it because that’s when he came back and beat me up really bad,” said the woman. The woman suffered a concussion and her face was covered with cuts and bruises. All in all, she probably got off very lucky.

Saul Guzman, 21, was found in a hospital being treated for a non-life threatening gunshot wound to the stomach. Police found a second suspect, Pedro Guzman, also 21, sitting in his car across the street from the hospital. Investigators also found a stolen purse connected to a different burglary inside a trash can nearby. Both suspects were charged with Burglary of Habitation, Felony Theft or Assault, Theft of Firearm, and Burglary of Vehicle.


The victim said she is installing a security system at her home and will be buying another gun. “I hope other women will take note,” she said. “I am glad I was able to defend myself.” We’re glad she will be buying another gun; we hope that gun will have more capacity – you just never know when you will be the one of the 50% that exceeds that average round count.


Rob- The average number of attackers is 2.3, so the homeowner was lucky she didn’t face 3 attackers.  Missed shots don’t count.  Studying these examples of defensive gun use helps you stay focused and stay on target.  And gut shots are quite lethal, but not immediately incapacitating.


Paul is that 5 or 6 shot revolver really enough?

Rachel: we reported recently on a woman who ran out of ammo with a shotgun without hitting her target. She and her infant twins thankfully still escaped with their lives.


Mother Shoots Intruder in Baby’s Room

An intruder got between a momma bear and her cub, and paid the price. An Indianapolis, Indiana woman heard the sounds of a break-in coming from her baby’s room and armed herself. She surprised the man coming from the room, where he shot first. She returned fire and hit the suspect multiple times. Police took the burglar to the hospital where his condition is unknown. Neither the woman nor her child was injured. William Barnes, 38, has  been charged with burglary with a deadly weapon, taking property by force or threatening the use of force while armed, battery by means of a deadly weapon and carrying a handgun without a license.

Police said this type of incident was very rare in the area, which is mostly quiet and residential. The robber was most unusual, as he carried zip ties and a walkie-talkie.  Police said they will be investigating this incident aggressively.


Rob- The homeowner called her husband, then got her gun.  That dithering gave the intruder time to enter the child’s room.  If she was carrying she might have stopped him from entering the house.


Paul – Walkie talkie means more people were likely involved


Craiglist Date Ends in Gunfire

Now, just who could have seen this coming?  A sexcapade engineered through Craigslist ended in robbery and gunfire. Early Saturday morning a man met met a woman outside a duplex after connecting online. He was walking to an apartment with the woman, when 19-year-old Steven Hurston allegedly appeared with a gun and told him to hand over his money. The victim drew his CCW and fired at Hurston, killing him. The victim called police standing over the robber.  


Chattanooga Police say a local couple has been enticing strangers for sex on websites like Craigslist and Backpage. The woman was probably working with Hurston. Police believe this could be the same couple responsible for at least four other incidents since December.


Paul – play stupid games win stupid prizes

Was the woman caught?

Son Defends Mother – and Memory of Father – In Home Invasion

History repeated itself 50 years later when a shot was fired during a home invasion.  This time, it was the invader who suffered the gunshot wound. A 54-year-old Chicago man who had lost his father to a home robber 5 decades in the past, defended himself and his 88-year-old mother when a man tried to break into the home’s window.  “I heard the gunshot,” Tate said. “And then my son called me, ‘Momma, somebody tried to break in the window.'” Police followed a trail of blood and found the 36-year-old wounded man two blocks away. The wounded man was taken to a hospital with a .22 caliber injury to his arm.


The uninjured woman said several of her siblings and children have been killed in gun violence. However, she is glad her son was there and armed with her pistol. “My son said he wasn’t going to let that somebody come in that window. He knew those boys came in the house and killed his father. He wasn’t going to let somebody come in the house and kill me.” However, the old girl said that the intruder was lucky. If she had been the one shooting, she would have shot through the window and hit him in the chest.


Paul – Good on them- but let’s think about a larger caliber than .22.


Chicagoland Street Robbery Fatal to Thug

Also from the mean streets of Chicagoland comes a tale of three men, two guns, and a CCW license.

We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Email from Alan in New Jersey




As a resident of a state (NJ) that has a de facto ban on civilian Concealed Carry, what are your thoughts on a “trunk gun”? In accordance with NJ law, I can have an unloaded long gun, in a “secured bag or package” in my vehicle at all times. Handguns are unfortunately trickier, as we are only legally allowed to have them in our vehicle if we are going to/from a gun shop or shooting range.


My opinion on the idea of a trunk gun is that it’s largely worthless, in that if i have the opportunity to escape a situation to grab my rifle from the car, then i have the opportunity to escape the situation PERIOD. If i’m in a mobile situation, it’d be impossible to get to the weapon, charge it, and get it into action and ALSO if the vehicle is still mobile, then getting out of there is the #1 option.


Thanks for listening, and i’m thoroughly enjoying the podcast.


Rob- I agree with you, Alan.  

Paul – School active shooter.

Gary –

Rachel – didn’t we have a DGU where the guy defended himself with a trunk gun successfully? Like Paul said…why not have the option? For daily regular carry though, find other legal options

John – In other states, if you are allowed to have a pistol in the car, this might be the case where an AR-15 pistol could come in handy. It would be essentially a PDW.



David from Ohio wrote in as well


Dear Polite Society,

Over Easter weekend we spent time with my wife’s sister’s family on both days. Her sister let’s call K and her husband J.  J is definitely middle to the left and comes from a very liberal family so we don’t talk politics much during the holidays. Anyway, Saturday we were talking about the Brussels attack and K and J said (paraphrasing), you have guns. If there is ever an emergency, we will bring our 4 kids over to your house and you will protect us. To which I tried to play it off. Now it is important to point out that J is a doctor so having someone with medical training would be good. But neither have any knowledge of firearms or self defense so handing them a gun would just be dangerous. On Sunday J started talking about how Garland was a good pick for the Supreme Court because he is a “middle of the road” candidate. I told him I thought Garland was a horrible choice and it goes right along with Obama’s anti-gun stance. He replied that I should hope he gets the nomination because Hillary will put someone even worse in. I ended the conversation. So to recap, nominate someone who wants to take guns away. But in case of emergency, run to the person that has them for protection. After all, it’s not your responsibility to protect yourself and family. Yup, sounds liberal to me. Keep up the good work.
David from Ohio


Rachel- As humans, we’re all inconsistent in some way. This kind of inconsistency is easy for us to spot in others. On the positive side, maybe this inconsistency will give you an opening to soften them more to the idea of firearms ownership and use as a positive thing. Maybe they’ll eventually get training themselves to take responsibility for their own kids’ safety.

Rob- Ask them why they want to run to you and your house?


Todd emailed in a comment about a previous episode.


Comment from last week’s show. The 2183 stamp is on the face of the follower; you don’t have to disassemble the mag. However, there may be another solution. I was having trouble with 124 gr HST +P in my G19. I had approx 2300 rds through the gun. I asked the local LE Glock rep about the followers and he recommended a new RSA (recoil spring assembly). He mentioned that in his experience, a new RSA fixed most feeding problems. Sure enough, that fixed my issues with the HST’s. I’m still using 2183 followers in all my CA mags.


Incidentally, if you simply feel like you have to replace them, give Glock a call. They will probably send you a few free of charge.






A Text came in from JP




Hey guys & gals, I have a DGU question. After you stop a home invasion and you call the police. What would you advise your family to say to the police? I know you’re suppose to say very little to the police until after I talk with my attorney but my family, what are they suppose to say? I can see how what they say may help or hurt me unintentionally in my defense.


Rob- same rules apply.

Rachel – GREAT point. Talk with your family ahead of time and tell them this.

Gary –



Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- I wrote about the messy reality of self-defense and about a few of the times armed civilians saved lives in March.  That article and more are posted at Clash Daily, at Ammoland and at my blog slow facts dot wordpress dot com.


John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money


John – It’s been a long show so I just want to point briefly out a post I did today. It is called Every Picture Tells A Story, Part V. It shows the growth of shall issue and permitless carry since 1986. Look at the charts. We are winning.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.


We would like to thank Charlie Foxtrot for writing up show notes for us. Even though you don’t hear him on the air he is certainly part of what you do hear. Look at his blog at not one more gun law dot blogspot dot com


Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  So for Charlie Foxtrot, Gary, Rob, John, Rachel and Susan,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rachel: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Susan: be aware,

Paul: and we’ll see you down the road.