Episode 388- Marty Hayes of ACLDN

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/388.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment: 

2- News Segment 

3- Interview Segment 1: Marty Hayes Part 1

4- Interview Segment 2: Marty Hayes Part 2

5- DGU Segment:

6- Listener Feedback segment 1

7 – Listener Feedback segment 2

8- Listener Feedback segment 3 and show close

1- Introduction


Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast sponsored by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Saturday September 3rd 2016, I’m Paul Lathrop

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll revisit the Punta Gorda Florida training incident that resulted in a death.

Rachel: I’m Rachel Malone, and the 9th Circuit is attacking gun rights AGAIN

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in our top DGU story, Rob Pincus had one, that wasn’t… so climb aboard

Rachel: strap in

John : and hang on!

Paul:  episode 388 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


John – I’ve had a most interesting week. It started off with breakfast with none other than “Doc Wesson”. Doc is every bit as engaging and funny in person as he is on the air on The Gun Nation podcast. We need to have him back on sometime soon! I’ve included a snapshot of Doc in the show notes as virtually no one knows what he looks like. Then it was off to the gun show in Greensboro where my big purchases were a spool of green paracord and a box of 105 grain .38 caliber bullets that I’ll get around to reloading someday. I’m not sure what all I’ll do with 1200 ft of paracord but the price per foot was so much cheaper that way I couldn’t pass it up. Finally, I got a call from Alan Gottlieb – yes, that Alan Gottlieb – asking if I would present on social media at the Gun Rights Policy Conference. I won’t spoil the news about someone else who got a call earlier asking that someone to be on the same panel. Oh, and one more thing. If anyone is interested in a new deer rifle or a rimfire rifle, you might want to check to see if your local Walmart still has the Ruger American Rifle in stock at less than wholesale prices.



-First week back at music teaching for the fall semester, and I am thrilled.

-Attended a live TV broadcast on the UT campus regarding campus carry. It was surreal to see holster clips on belts. 🙂 The forum seemed like they were discussing whether or not campus carry should be allowed. It’s like they are in denial that it is in fact law. The anti-gun members talked at length about how they were caught completely off guard last legislative session and the other side won because they were so well-organized and had great turnout (yay us). They also mentioned constitutional carry and how the Republicans have made it a priority and, because of the political leanings of Texas, the great evil of permitless carry is sure to happen soon. Yay us again! 🙂 Let’s hope they’re right!





Promo about upcoming training classes here.


2- News 1

John – As previously reported, retired librarian Mary Knowlton, 73, of Punta Gorda, Florida was shot and killed during a police-sponsored community demonstration.  Although the investigation is currently active, Chief Tom Lewis has broken his silence on the matter.  As he said, “Typically, the police department are the ones who show up and take care of your pain.  We’re not typically the cause of it.”  But, when a total lack of safety culture exists in a group, something like this is bound to happen.


The fatal flaw in their system was that live ammunition was stored IN THE SAME BOX as blanks!  Well, that is just one of the problems.  They also, routinely it seems, allowed weapons capable of firing lethal ammunition to be pointed at people during demonstrations.  


One of the excuses offered by Chief Lewis was the size of the department.  He believes having only one armory somehow was a contributing factor.  


Of course, NOW he has enacted policies to prevent incidents like this from happening again.  These policies include banning live weapons during scenario-based training and storing live ammunition and blanks separately.  He has also gone as far as posting policies and updates to their website.


He will not resign for the stated reason of departmental stability.  It appears, however, that a casual attitude surrounding safety is the issue here.  How many people taking such classes think to themselves that police officers are gun experts and there is no danger?  How many of you have been to a class where you were not even allowed to point a blue gun in an unsafe direction?  Always, always, always follow the safety rules recited at the introduction to each Polite Society episode!


Rachel-We know that armed citizens are statistically safer than law enforcement. Many citizens do not. Stories like this make people who don’t understand safety principles think that it’s impossible to ensure safety when handling guns. This makes them afraid of guns, and then they support gun bans. It’s our job to reverse that thinking.

John – Each gun should have checked, double checked, and triple checked by different people.

Rachel- The issue: who is responsible for our safety?

John – You know some schools in some states mandate hunter safety classes in certain grades.


2- News 2

The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals is at it again.  On August 31 a three judge panel of the lofty court ruled that banning firearm sales to those who hold medical marijuana cards does not violate the Second Amendment.  In 2011, S. Rowan Wilson, a Nevada resident, attempted to purchase a firearm and the retailer refused the sale citing a rule prohibiting sales to users of illegal drugs.  You may think that medical marijuana is legal in many states.  And, you would be correct.  However, it is still illegal under federal law.


This situation highlights how sticky things can get when the federal government has criminalized so many aspects of people’s lives.  Isn’t it interesting how things have changed in a few short years.  Although Ms. Wilson can obtain marijuana over the counter, she will have to turn to the black market to purchase a firearm.  Of course, we would never suggest that anyone should ever engage in such an illegal activity.  But, it gives us something to think about.  Most of us were required to disclose whether we used illegal drugs when we obtained our carry permits.  Are there people who believe marijuana is legal in their state and answer this question incorrectly?


John – I’m sure that there are people who answer that question on Form 4473 incorrectly. And commit a felony.


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest Marty Hayes.



3- Interview 1


4- Interview 2


5- DGUs  (at beginning) We are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive gun use segment is intended as information NOT as training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.


Rob Pincus Involved in a Self-Defense Situation

Rob Pincus, the bullet-headed master of all things tactical, found several people unlawfully in his wife’s vacant house. He did what every red-blooded armed ‘Murican would do, he called the cops. Rob found squatters had invaded his wife’s old home. He didn’t confront them, he backed out, drove away and called in the pros.  In his words; “Have a gun? Have training? Have emotions? Have anger? ….. Control yourself. Deep breath. Drive to the end of the block, call the police.”

Five of Denver’s Finest arrested the squatters with their drugs, weapons and outstanding warrants. The police did their job – as Rob did his.  

We applaud Rob for his self-restraint. He recognized that the armed civilian is NOT the police. In his own words again; “Maybe I would’ve gotten into a justified shooting today and had a long arduous legal and emotional aftermath… Maybe I would’ve gotten killed. We’ll never know because I did exactly what I and every responsible self-defense instructor I know advises: Avoid Conflict. Let the police do their job.”

Be like Rob.



John – We have had a lot of DGUs where people think they need to restrain the perp or shoot at the intruder after they’ve left.

Rachel – distinguish between legal, moral, ethical justification. Justified does not = required. Use wisdom.


Obama Gas Station Robbery Ended by Clerk With a Gun

Oh the irony, the chewy, chewy, delicious irony, coated with sprinkles. Columbia, South Carolina is home to a gas station and souvenir shop called the Obama Store. The marquee even features a large, smiling portrait of the world champion gun salesmen himself. At around 3:30 in the morning a man approached the counter and flashed a gun. But, he found the Obama Store was defended by… (wait for it)… a good guy with a gun.

Threatened by the armed robber, the store’s clerk grabbed his own firearm. The thief spooked, firing several shots behind him as he ran. Fortunately, no one was injured. As of yet, no arrests have been made and clerk is not expected to be charged, as he didn’t fire. It seems the patrons and employees of the Obama Store were protected by the lawful use of a civilian owned firearm. Now, who would have expected that? We were told that NEVER happens.


Hmmm, maybe we should try a Bloomberg Store?  Wadayah think, Shannon?


Rachel- poor guy, you’d think of all places he could have a free hunting ground it would be there. What irony.


We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Listener e-mail discussion


Rachel summarized the class perfectly, but there is one thing she left out, and that was a highlight for me.

Kathy stated, when a student walks into our classroom, they see 4 wall, a floor and a ceiling. Pretty boring. But, inside the walls, there is a lot going on, studs, wires, pipes, air ducts, insulation, etc. She said we were going to pull the sheet rock down and examine the inner workings. She methodically went through all the things we already “knew”, and examined the reasoning behind those skills.

Case in point. When I took my for basic pistol class, the instructor said, “Before you use some tool, learn how to fill magazines by hand and by feel, so you can load them in the dark if needed.” I accepted that as a truth without really challenging it. I have taken classes from Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Gunsite, Utah and Utah Instructor, and many others, plus listened to 1000’s of hours of podcasts, read dozens of books, and lots of internet articles. No one ever challenged or contradicted that statement. So, when I started teaching, I gave my students the same advice. As a large, strong, generally healthy male, I have no problems filling a mag by hand. But, in my classes, I would get older, weaker, maybe arthritic women that really, really struggled filling magazines. I would show them my UpLula loader and mention that once you get hand filling down, you should get one of these because they are handy, but in only one case did I actually let the student use it.

And I mentioned this to Kathy. And her response was, “Why wouldn’t you use a tool, if one is available?” and I responded just like I had been taught, “Because sometimes you might have to load a magazine and your tool is not available.” And, I thought that was the end of that. And Kathy came back with “Why wouldn’t a tool be available? Do you carry loose ammo in your pocket when you go about town?” And at that moment, my world came crashing down. She was absolutly correct. You should never have the need to fill a magazine away from your range bag or gun table. I have been purposely and deliberately making learning harder for my students based on a belief I had that does not have a foundation in fact. This type of realization happened to me over and over during the course of the week. Kathy challenged so many things that I had wrong or at least didn’t quite have the whole picture.

As a student, I learned that I need to challenge what I am being taught. As a dual-degreed engineer, with the exception of a very few laws of nature, everything I was taught came with some kind of mathematical proof. By nature, I am skeptical of what I learn, but for some reason, that didn’t carry over to gun stuff. That is something I learned I need to change.

As an instructor, I learned something even more important. When you are teaching a beginning class to someone who has never touched a gun, it is very easy to gloss over the things that seem obvious. But, to that student, you are their only source of knowledge, and what you teach will get ingrained in them as irrefutable fact. Furthermore, 50% of the information presented in the NRA Basic Pistol class or similar entry level classes is never touched on again, even if the student continues on to take a lot more training, and many won’t. Whether we are teaching professionally or just taking a friend to the range for the first time, it is vitally important that what we teach is correct because there may never be a second chance for that student.

But, it doesn’t end there. Class was over and we all went home and resumed our normal lives. A couple weeks later, Kathy posts on Facebook. “I had a student that claimed that you should never use a tool to fill a magazine until you could do it by hand. Can’t quite wrap my head around that, but maybe I’m missing something. Have you heard anyone explain their reasons for this idea, and if so – can you explain those reasons to me?”

As part of the class, Kathy gave us a USB stick with a lot of educational material on it. One of the files was how to be a better instructor, and one of her recommendations was to keep a private journal and, after every class, list what YOU learned. So, Kathy is practicing what she teaches and my interaction with filling a magazine, must have gotten a mention in HER journal. From her perspective, a student challenged her. So, she reached out to her network and asked, what am I missing? It was an excellent conversation.

As promised, Kathy tore the sheetrock down and I learned so much, some new information and some challenges to what I already thought I new. But she also presented material on how to teach our adult students. But, if you took a step back, Kathy was using those same principles on us, HER adult instructor students. So, I would sit there and I would have that epiphany moment and the light bulb would above my head would burn bright and I would say to myself “Wow, I just learned something”, but then take a step back and ask, “how did that happen?”, look at what Kathy did, have a second epiphany moment and the light bulb burned even brighter as I realized, she used this technique, and this one, and that one, and, wow, they really work.


Larry Piekarski

GunSense LLC




This is for Rachel.

I was touring the Texas State Capitol building in Austin last year and as I was exiting the building I noticed a sign designating a special entry for concealed carry holders.  I barely started a conversation with security (State Police?) about it when he had to go attend to some new visitors.  Would you please tell us how this works at the capitol?  I think it is interesting that a government building seems to accommodate concealed carrying visitors.

Thank you,



Rachel-Absolutely – yes, anything legal to carry outside of the Capitol is also legal to carry inside of the Capitol, and it’s always been that way. There used to be no security to enter the Capitol – no metal detectors, just come on in. Then in 2010 there was a dude who fired a few rounds on the Capitol lawn, and they thought, hey, we should have some kind of protection to keep that from coming inside. But most of the legislators carry, Governor Perry famously carries, and there was NO way Texas was going to go for forbidding handguns in the Capitol. So, they put in metal detectors for most people, and a separate CHL/LTC line for those with a license. So, you just walk up to that line, they swipe your license to be sure it’s valid and legit, and then you go on in. No metal detector.





Hey y’all (’cause I’m Southern),

First, I want to add my congratulations to the charges against Paul being dropped. Second, I want to thank Paul for not only getting his story out there, but being willing to be – sometimes painfully – honest about the incident and what he would have done differently and lessons learned. In particular about having a list in the wallet for medications, doctor phone/fax number, and pharmacy phone number.

I look forward to seeing all of you in Tampa for the GRPC!





I hope you guys are right about the election, and i’ll be the first to write in and admit I was wrong. I keep going back to the electoral college map, and I can’t get the numbers to work for Trump. It has been a crazy election season though. If you look inside the polls the third parties seem to be taking votes from Clinton, so they may help. I’m in PA, now a light blue state so I feel I’m forced to vote for Trump on the chance he could swing the state his way.


If Texas secedes i’ll be down though!


Have you guys heard of the free state project (freestateproject.org)? It’s a movement in the libertarian party to get people within the party to move to NH. It’s an interesting concept. They picked a state with a small population so they could have the most influence on the laws and policies on a local/state level. NH is ranked as one of the freest states, with good gun and knife laws.


On a different topic…I know a lot of people are buying guns right now so I’ll throw an option out there that I don’t hear much about. I picked up a CZ p09 about a year ago, and I’m really impressed. It’s run 100% with everything I’ve put through it. Quality is on par with my sig’s and hk’s at a much, much lower price, and has the best feeling grip of any double stack I’ve had. If you want to blow some money anything I’ve seen out of their custom shop has been really nice!


Glad to hear your free Paul!!!!




John – I have heard of the Free State Project. More power to them! I love CZ’s esp the CZ 75




Really enjoying your podcast. Thanks for all that you do.


You discussed the posting of illicit “No Guns” signage. I am not aware if there is a standardized sign in North Carolina, but I have seen several that simply cannot be legal.


I was required to enter an office building in the Durham area and noticed, on the way out, a small sticker, barely bigger than a business card, about one inch above the bottom frame of the glass next to the door. It was approximately 3 to 4 inches off the ground.


After securing my firearm in the car, I returned and asked the receptionist in the office that I had visited if the building was “Gun Free”. She was not aware that it was, but agreed that the sticker was more than a little fishy.


I make it a habit of not merely avoiding “Gun Free” businesses. I will usually point out to someone in charge inside that the reason I will not be patronizing their establishment is posted on their front door.


I have no illusion that they will change their mind because of me, however if enough voice their opinion, they may just catch on.


Here’s hoping.


Keep up the good work!




John – No standardization. The anti gun folks have been urging their followers to slap those stickers on stores.





I believe it was Rob who asked how he balances liability of a business to provide protection vs. liability of an amusement park. From the standpoint of liberty, there’s no difference. You are not being forced to a particular location or business. If you don’t like their security, don’t go in. Imagine what happens to the cost of business if owners are forced to guarantee the physical security of patrons against the actions of a third party over which he/she has no control. It’s basically the same argument we use against the Left when they want to hold gun manufacturers responsible for a third party’s illegal actions. You have choices. You are responsible for you. We can’t force our version of an “acceptable level of security” on private businesses. Think of the slippery slope that creates!


A business should have to provide for physical security for those potential dangers under the owner’s control – safe facilities, safe environment (e.g. all the heavy stuff isn’t stacked perilously on the top shelves), etc.


Now, if you are talking government created monopolies, like your local utility company or courthouse, I can see a liability issue as you generally have no choice in selecting another option.


As for the survey Paul spoke of, taking the same amount of people from each state guarantees a skewed result. I come from North Dakota so am familiar with the political differences between “God’s Country” and California, for example, where I live now. But those states are significantly less populated than the coasts, so taking an equal number would grossly over-represent those states – which of course tend to lean right. If you want to go state by state, you would have to select a proportional number of voters as represented by the states percentage of the national population.


Of course, that completely ignores the fact that we aren’t a democracy and we don’t elect our presidents popularly – so the only valid method to predict the race is to look at the electoral college.





John – Wisconsin



Paul and friends, some follow- up to my prior voicemail (after I’ve had a

couple moments to plan my words).


My thoughts, based on my shooting in several USPSA and IDPA matches, is

that once basic weapon skills is acquired, competition shooting helps

pressure test your skills execution and your marksmanship execution.  Can the

Skills that were learned on a static training range; can they be performed when

it really counts (either when they count for points, or when it is in a

CCW/DGU encounter)?


Competition shooting has provided me with frequent opportunities to performing skills relevant to a CCW encounter:  performing draws, shooting target engagements & multiple targetengagements, shooting at near targets, far targets, moving targets & small targets.  Mixed into that practice are also movement, re-aquirement of shooting position/stance, shooting around objects/cover, one-hand shooting or shooting while handling objects. Reload and perform malfunction clearances as necessary.  I also get to watch shooters that are better than

me perform those similar tasks, and I can learn by watching.


The downside to completion is the low number of repetitions performed for the time spent.  And that each rep or scenario is only performed once (exception Steel Challenge, where the best 4 of 5 runs is counted for

score).  But I argue that these are higher quality repetitions because you have additional performance pressure (being timed and scored) and additional social pressure (anxiety, being watched by others).


Thoughts from the group?


I try to encourage other shooters (people that shoot, but have not yet shot in a USPSA/IDPA competition) to try competition pistol shooting.  I tell them that:  “Targets

are 18-inches wide, and most targets are between 5 and 15 yards away. You

get the highest points by hitting targets in the center.   Sometimes there may be targets that are smaller, further or more challenging.”   [Then I show them a YouTube video of a minor/junior shooting a USPSA/IDPA stage, and ask them if that is something they could do.]


I try to relate competition shooting to a shooting activity that they are already familiar with (shooting a B-27 silhouette seven to fifteen yards away), instead of a scary unknown good- ol’ boy insider-club activity. Thoughts from the group  (Rob’s show bio mentions local IDPA matches, and Rachel shoots state rifle matches) about starting competition shooting?


Thanks for all the Polite Society gang does (including Charlie Foxtrot, behind the scenes).



Rachel- I’ve never shot a state rifle match. Advice: go to a Run n Gun. If you can come to Texas or Oklahoma, it’s worth the drive. If not, contact me and I’ll help you set one up in your area.




Gary: John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money


While I’ve had a few posts this past week, there has been nothing special. However, I am working on a long post regarding campus carry in Kansas. The six public universities will officially have campus carry effective July 1, 2017. They were all supposed to send their implementation plans to the Kansas Board of Regents this week.  From what I can tell, they aren’t kicking and screaming about it like the University of Texas but merely kicking.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.


We would like to thank Charlie Foxtrot for writing up show notes for us. Even though you don’t hear him on the air he is certainly part of what you do hear. Look at his blog at not one more gun law dot blogspot dot com


Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank Marty Hayes for joining us today.  So for Charlie Foxtrot, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking in four words)


Paul: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Rachel: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.


(after show close) How could we have made this episode better?


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