Episode 296 – Round Table Discussion

Introduction “An armed society is a polite society.. and this is the Polite Society Podcast where we support and report on civilian self-defense.”

John: Welcome to the polite society podcast presented by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded live on Wednesday, December 24, 2014. I’m John Richardson
Rob- I’m Rob Morse and on tonights show we’ll talk about the lump of coal left for us by the UN.
Gary D: I’m Gary Daugherty we also cover more on Washington initiative 594.  So climb aboard.
Rob: strap in.
John- and hang on!  Episode 296 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.
Show intro music.

Seg 1- Personal news from each participant

John – No real gun news from me since the weekend. About the only thing gun related is that a shoulder holster arrived from Sportsman’s Guide. It was a Belgian Police surplus holster that cost all of $17. I tried it on and felt so “Miami Vice” with it. I just need my white linen jacket and a pastel colored tee shirt! Oh, and a Bren Ten.
Rob- I stand corrected.  New gun springs isn’t a place in Utah.  I got them in the mail.
Gary- Not much so far just got into Texas a couple of days ago, but I am seriously looking forward to going to the guntry club called Frisco Gun Club.
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Seg 2- News
1-As we record this on Christmas Eve, here is a lump of coal for gun owners’ Christmas stockings: the UN Arms Trade Treaty goes into effect today.  It required 50 countries to ratify it before it went into effect and it has 60.  Thanks to President Obama, the United States is one of the signatories but the Senate has not ratified it. Major arms manufacturing countries that have not signed it include Russian, Pakistan, China, and India. Meanwhile, the United Kingdom, France, and Germany has both signed and ratified it. While the treaty does not directly apply to the United States, it will impact imports and there is little to stop the Obama Administration from adopting regulations based upon the treaty that will impact gun owners.

2- Cifford Tyler was admitted to a hospital for depression after his wife left him.  He was treated for less than a month and then released.  That was back in the 1980s when treatment for depression did not include the drugs we have today.  Today he has no signs of mental illness.

Mister Tyler applied to own a handgun and was denied because of his previous commitment.  He appealed the decision.  A three judge federal panel of the 6th circuit said that a prior mental health commitment does not prohibit owning a firearm once the citizen is no longer a danger to himself or others.  There is a federal appeals process, but that process has never been funded.  The judge ruled that citizens retain the right of self-defense even if the government does not properly fund the process to appeal denial due to a mental health commitment.

The case may take several turns-

The federal government could request a rehearing en banc, with all judges in the Sixth Circuit reviewing the three-judge panel’s ruling.
The government could appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.
The government could choose not to challenge the decision and allow the case to be remanded to District Court.
Tyler would still have to prove to the District Court judge, in light of the appellate ruling, that he should be allowed to have a firearm.

If the government contests the case, it could result in a costly legal fight with both sides hiring mental-health experts to offer opinions.

3-Washington state officials ran and hid from Bloomberg’s recently passed initiative 594.  The state Attorney General said he has no legal interpretation to offer the public or law enforcement agencies.  The AG referred everyone to the text of the measure itself.  The Washington Department Of Licensing also referred questions back to local law enforcement agencies, since the local agencies would be the ones enforcing the law.  Quote, “the Washington Firearms Program Staff cannot provide legal advice or help the public or (help) licensed firearm dealers (as they) interpret the firearms statutes found in RCW 9.41 or I-594”

Rob- Like Washington DC, we will see the new law used in plea bargains and used to selectively prosecute gun owners who lack legal insurance.

4- Still in Washington State.. anti-rights politicians promised us peace if we would accept a little regulation.  We barely paid attention, but most Washington voters said “Sure, that sounds good.  Where do we sign?”  The latest promise was that armed assault would stop if we only had universal background checks for firearms transfers.  It shouldn’t surprise our listeners that crime with a firearm didn’t stop.  Violent crime by drug gangs didn’t even slow down. Armed robbery continued over and over in Washington State as if the new law didn’t exist.   It was a fantasy to think criminals would obey the next gun law after they ignored the previous thousand.  It is easy to sell fantasies at the Washington ballot box.. when you have tens of millions of dollars on your side.

5- We told you about the anti-gun video that shows a teenager stealing his parents guns to bring them to school and turn them in.  That video was shot in a California charter school.  There are no legal exceptions to California gun laws even if you’re shooting an anti-gun video.  North Oakland Community Charter School Director Carolyn Gramstorff said the school rented space to San Francisco filmmaker Rejina Sincic but had no idea what she was filming.  The school director asked the film’s producer to remove the school’s name in credits at the end of the video.  The school director has been ignored.

Rob- A school director with a zero tolerance policy would ask the police to prosecute the director for breaking the law.

6-The many parks in beautiful Knoxville Tennessee are gun free zones.  Well, they aren’t really gun free, but there is a thin sign that asks criminals who break the law for a living to stay out of the parks.  Meanwhile, this month there have been almost a dozen robberies in nearby areas.  Gun Rights advocate Liston Matthews gave Knoxville readers a list of the Aldermen and the Mayor who all supported disarming honest people in Knoxville city parks.  Our listeners who travel through East Tennessee can give them a call from the link in our show notes.

Thank you, Liston.

7- If you haven’t been asked if you own guns by your doctor, you soon will be. The question, “Do you keep loaded guns in your home?”, is part of the questions to be asked under ObamaCare aka the Affordable Care Act. Your response to the question will be recorded in your doctor’s office. The Electronic Health Records (EHR) initiative will also make your records available to the Federal government. You are not required to answer the question regarding firearms. For now. If you are wondering why your doctor is suddenly asking these questions, it is because he or she is required to do so by the Federal government if they want to get Medicare reimbursement.

John – My own doc asked me to fill out a new 5-page health questionnaire in November and the guns question was on it. I skipped it. My wife the nurse says the government is into data mining with all these questions and I think she is right.
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8- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKu7TYWNxqA  (I felt a great disturbance in the force) There was a disturbance as restrictive gun control laws crumpled in Ohio.  Ohio Governor Kasich signed a bill that both allows hunting with suppressors and requires Ohio sheriffs to sign the federal forms necessary when buying suppressors.  The bill did several other things as well. It reduced the number of instruction hours required to get a CCW.  It expanded reciprocity with other states.  It would also allow non-residents who work in Ohio to apply for Ohio permits.  Citizens with valid CCW permits will not have to go through a NICS check when they transfer a firearm in Ohio.

Rob- Good work, Ohio!.

9- Arkansas legislator proposes to lower concealed carry fees.  Representative Jim Dotson reported that concealed carry holders paid millions of dollars more than the state needs to issue permits.  Quote, “If we were to reduce the fees even by 50 percent across the board, we would still have an excess of $1 million in revenue being collected from this program.” close quote.  The state charges $100 for new license applications, with people over the age of 65 charged $50. A five-year renewal application costs $35. Duplicate licenses and late fees cost $15 each, and a transferred license costs $35.

Rob- You’re charging a fee for a civil right.  This right allows citizens to reduce crime and it LOWER the costs to the state.  Why are you charging for it at all?  Do I have to pay a tax to go to church, or post on the internet?

10- A joint committee of the New Hampshire House and Senate voted to allow licensed concealed carry of firearms in the State House. They had previously allowed, then banned for the last two years, and are now allowed again. Rep. Joe Pitre (R-Farmington) said, “It’s constitutional..We should be supporting what the Constitution says.” The rule change does not allow either open carry or brandishing in the State House.

11-Gun owners with a concealed carry permit can now carry inside all public buildings in Gilbert, Arizona. This reverses a previous policy that made carry illegal. Those who carry without a concealed-carry weapon permit can be asked by police officers to place their firearms in a gun locker provided by the city.  The Gilbert town council updated the code so it reflects a 2006 state law, which requires public establishments to offer gun lockers in places where individuals without permits are banned from carrying their weapons.  The Arizona Citizens Defense League tried to enact this same policy into state law.  They were unsuccessful.  The ACDL press release said “We applaud Councilman Victor Petersen for proposing the new procedure, and thank Mayor John Lewis and the Gilbert Council members who voted for passage of the new ordinance.  It’s a great move in the right direction towards eliminating victim disarmament zones.”

Rob- There is a small chance of a negligent discharge any time people handle their firearms.  Is that risk offset by the risk of an armed citizen?  So far, it looks like it is safer for civilians to leave their firearms in their holsters.

12- This firearms news item lands close to home.  The US Defense advanced projects research agency said it will continue funding projects that guide a 50 caliber bullet to its target in flight.  To offer some perspective, the bullet drops about eight feet in flight.  The high-technology project is called Exacto.  Each bullet is fitted with a sensor which works in tune with a laser.  DARPA public affairs said the agency was not releasing any information at this time other than what was on its website.

Rob- I watched this movie once where a defense contractor worked on bullets that receive a laser beam and curve in flight.  That must be why this seems really familiar.  There aren’t many things around your house that you can load into a 50 cal and have them work when they reach the end of the barrel.  Maybe a paperweight would still work, but this bullet has to be way smarter than a paperweight.. at least in this movie I saw.

13-A federal grand jury indicted a former law enforcement officer in Puerto Rico.  He was charged with 17 counts for illegally obtaining concealed carry permits. Sergio Marrero was a Puerto Rico Police Department lieutenant in charge of detectives in the northern city of Bayamón. The lieutenant forged firearms training documents for clients, going so far as to use the notary seal of a deceased attorney and the superintendent of police to help obtain notoriously hard to get concealed carry permits. Puerto Rico has some of the strictest gun laws in the U.S.  Puerto Rico has a murder rate that is six times the rate for the rest of the US.  That puts the Puerto Rico murder rate on par with Mexico.

Rob- another failed gun free zone.

14-This next story was sent to us by listener Anthony.  The US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia said the Environmental Protection Agency can’t regulate lead-based ammunition or spent components. A lower court had previously dismissed a lawsuit by the Center for Biological Diversity.  They wanted the EPA to regulate lead ammunition under the Toxic Substances Control Act. That act specifically exempts arms and ammunition from the oversight of the EPA. Judge David Tatel said, “”Given that bullets and shot can become spent only if they are first contained in a cartridge or shell and then fired from a weapon,” the environmental groups “have identified no way in which EPA could regulate spent bullets and shot without also regulating cartridges and shells.”

Gun Quotes- This quote comes from an age when police departments were switching from revolvers to semi-automatic handguns.  Quote “Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my (1911) pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair.”-  That was Lieutenant Colonel Jeff Cooper who founded what became the Gunsite Training Center in Paulden, Arizona.

Hang on everybody, we’ll be back after this
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Segment 3 Interviews
Round table discussion- What should a friend do if a gun owner is ill?  We met family and friends over the holidays. If my friend is struggling with depression, serious illness, chronic pain, divorce or addiction, then I want to hold his guns.  I want to help him get well, and that means I want to hold his firearms until he recovers.

Paul said he wouldn’t act unless someone was obviously suicidal or mentally unstable.

-Some of my gifts to my family were not the right size.  Similarly, we will see guns that don’t fit the new gun owner.  What is your advice to the new gun owner who wonders if this is the right gun for them?

Paul said shoot it, (preferably with a QUALIFIED instructor that shoots far better than you do.

-Ambassadors-  What is a good ambassador?  Please download Tom Gresham’s gun talk episode for the 14th of December and listen to his after show segment. http://www.guntalk.libsyn.com/  Tom talks about gun clubs promoting firearms online.  In contrast, some gun clubs, gun stores and second amendment activist organization don’t want to be on Facebook.  Some don’t want to tweet.  That is like being a used car dealer and not wanting a billboard because “All our friends already know who we are.”  Yes, some of us gun guys have blind spots that big.

A salesman and minister wear a sport coat.  A doctor and dentist wear a lab coat.  A personal trainer has his uniform too, and it is different from the car salesman’s.  Each has the uniform of their profession.  They dress, look and act that way for a reason.  What would you do if you wanted more people to join your local gun group?  How would you dress?  Where would you go?  What would you say?  As an example, I rolled an airplane into a shopping mall to invite people to join a flying club.

Paul- I think attitude is more important than appearance.  Attitudes that I would like ambassadors to exude.. a) Professional b) polite c) humble (at least not a braggart)

John- the reason that I *don’t* belong to the Asheville Rifle and Pistol Club anymore is that they are stuck in the 1950s. They prohibit “human silhouette” targets, suppressors, etc. There is no practical pistol competition or steel targets. They punch “official target” paper and that is it.

Segment 4 DGUs

-This first story is from Center Point Alabama.  Derrick Graham was resting with his 1-year-old son when he heard a noise.  At first, the thought it was his wife coming home, so he ignored it. The sound continued and Mister Graham walked into the kitchen.  There he found glass all over the floor from the broken back window.  That is when Mr Graham heard sounds coming from his daughter’s room.  He grabbed his firearm and saw 21-year-old Deontre Johnson trying to get out the backdoor with stolen property.  Graham pulled his gun on Johnson and held him as he called 911.  Two other men were outside waiting for the stolen goods.  Police arrived and arrested Johnson for  burglary and theft of property.  He remains in the Jefferson County Jail.

Graham says it was tough keeping his young son away from the suspect. But it’s also what kept him from shooting.  “I didn’t want (my son) growing up thinking his dad had killed or whatever. But at that time, it might be what you have to do.  If it happens again, he might not be so lucky.”

-An elderly homeowner in Cool Ridge, West Virginia heard someone try to enter her home just after dark.  The homeowner called police.  She also called out that the home was occupied.  The intruder continued to try doors and windows to get inside.  The homeowner shot the intruder after the intruder broke a window and started to climb inside.  The police are not expected to file any charges against the homeowner.  Neighbors were shocked that someone would try to break into a home in their upscale neighborhood.  As Stephen Wegener says, How often does someone get murdered in a nice neighborhood? Just like anywhere else – only once.

-24-year-old Osama Bayazid runs a clothing store in Kansas City, Missouri.  Two men waited outside for an hour and a half before they came into the store and tried to rob Bayazid at gunpoint.  Bayazid presented his own 9 millimeter handgun and shot one of the robbers.  Both the robber and Bayazid were wounded.  Bayazid was wounded nine times. None of the bullets hit major arteries or vital organs.  He is now listed in stable condition.  Surveillance video showed the robber’s two accomplices diving into silver two-door car as the shooting started.  Police are still looking for them.

A West Philadelphia [PA] bar owner shot a woman early Saturday after she attacked him inside his own establishment. The owner of the 601 Bar  told investigators he was armed with a handgun, had a permit to carry and had just shot a woman who was assaulting him.. The 33-year old woman was taken to the University of Pennsylvania Hospital with a graze wound to her thigh. The bar owner was taken to Mercy Philadelphia Hospital for the treatment of bruises and  several human bites that he suffered during the attack. No charges had yet been filed in the case. An investigation remained ongoing with police. Pennsylvania does not  ban licensed carry where alcohol is served.

-If you intend to rob a store using a pellet gun, don’t go to one where the clerk is armed with a real firearm. A robber did just that on Friday evening when he tried to rob the Meat Market in Daytona Beach, FL. The clerk then pulled out a gun and fired a shot at the suspect who promptly ran out of the store. As the robber was leaving, he attempted to carjack the store owner’s wife who was just arriving at the store. The clerk fired another shot at the suspect who dropped his pellet gun and ran away. That second shot struck her car door, but police said they do not know if any of the rounds struck the suspect as no blood was found at the scene.

-This story was sent to us by listener Greg.  A 16-year-old from Middletown, Ohio tried to rob someone at gunpoint.  The teen wanted to buy some new athletic shoes.  Rather than wait in line, the teen along with two of his friends tried to rob customers as they came out of the shoe store.  One of the customers was a concealed carry holder. Jawaad A. Jabbar was pronounced dead at a local hospital after being shot in self defense.  The concealed carry holder and witnesses remained at the scene.  The two other robbers fled, but were arrested.  The father of one of the arrested teens said he was confused by his son’s actions because his son had the money to buy the new athletic shoes.  Police Sgt. Jay Phares said. “What’s tragic is that somebody lost their life over tennis shoes.”

We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.
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Segment 5 Show close
(DO NOT READ)The Polite Society download app is out on Amazon for Android and the I-phone app is in I-tunes and it is called Podcast Box.  They are located by our old name, Politics and guns.  Hot links are in our show notes.

Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?

Rob- They promised us peace.

John: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank Miguel Gonzales and John and Mike Willett for joining us today.  co-hosts, will you be with us next time?  I’m looking forward to it.  Until the next time…
Rob: stay safe,
Gary: be aware,
John: and we’ll see you down the road.

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