Episode 391 – When Seconds Count

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/391.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment: 

2- News Segment:

3- Interview Segment 1: R.P. Ruggero

4- Geeks Gadgets and Guns talks about Samsung

5- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:


1- Introduction

Paul: Welcome to the Polite Society Podcast powered by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on October 16th, 2016, I’m Paul Lathrop

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and we talk with author R. P. Ruggerio about his third and last book in the  series “Brushfire Plague”.

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll talk about the Houston 9-1-1 operator who continually hung up on people – even in life and death situations.

Rachel: I’m Rachel Malone, and we’ll give you the death toll from shootings in the “gun-free” city of Chicago.

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in one of our DGU’s we will talk about a criminal that brought a bat to a gunfight…. So climb aboard,

Rachel: strap in

John: and hang on!

Paul:  episode 391 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob –  I got in some dry practice before I went to the Texas Firearms Festival.  I got to see the lovely and talented Rachel Malone in person.. As well as Dr. John Edeen, Scott and Mandy Gibbons, Tracy Thronberg and the Roberts.  What is the most popular concealed carry handgun?  They were not there to try.

John – The only thing gun related that I’ve done this week was think about assembling my AR pistol lower. I had planned to do it yesterday but other stuff needed to be done. I did register for the SHOT Show and have tried to register Barb for her Media Badge. If you are friends with me on Facebook you know the difficulties I’ve been having with that. I’m more than a little disgusted and if I was less restrained I’d say something that would get this podcast an explicit rating.



  • Pecos – made it all the way without DQing a single stage (DQ’s are when you don’t make all the hits before the time runs out). Lesson: training works. Train physically AND mentally, exactly how you want to perform. I didn’t perform at my best, but my worst (tired, hot, not feeling well) was plenty good enough.
  • CSAT Instructor Course – it was a challenge to shoot the standards. Very proud of getting this certification. Lessons: (1) sometimes less is more in teaching. Give fewer points and make sure they’re taught and applied thoroughly. (2) I like the way that the pistol standards give no room for error. You have to do everything mechanically correctly. (4) I’ve been shooting .40 this year as an experiment. I struggled with the fast shots and one-handed shots, and ended up switching to 9mm to make the standards. .
  • Texas Firearms Festival – glad I got to run the rifle range today. Lessons: (1)  gadgets and optics don’t make up for crappy shooting. Better to have a plain stock rifle and have solid fundamentals. (2) I was impressed with Gunwerks guys and ATX Armory – they seemed the most squared-away and on the same page as I am. I want to attend a Gunwerks distance rifle course.




Paul/Susan –


Promo about upcoming training classes here.

(Jeff Street class) https://stepbystepguntraining.com/everglades-glock-range-event-2016/

(June 24, 25th 2017.  Beyond Concealed Carry Enhanced.  9am -5pm both days. Richmond, IL)

(June 15 – 18, 2017. MAG-40. Sioux Falls, SD)

(August 26 & 27, 2017. Beyond Concealed Carry Enhanced. Sioux Falls, SD)

Live read ACLDN


1- Houston – We have a problem

A 9-1-1 operator is accused of intentionally hanging up on callers during emergencies simply because she was not in the mood to help. Crenshanda Williams has been charged with interference with an emergency telephone call. Williams had been employed as a telecommunicator with the Houston Emergency Center since July 2014, and supervisors began to notice that her logs revealed an abnormally high amount of “short calls,” with a duration of less than 20 seconds. Supervisors investigated the recorded call logs, and found that Williams had disconnected thousands of calls between Oct. 2015 and March 2016. Williams raised suspicion on March 12 when she allegedly hung up on several callers – one call was ended immediately after she picked it up. During another call, an operator — identified as Williams — is heard answering “Houston 911, do you need medical, police or fire?” When the male caller responded, “This is a robbery,” Williams is heard sighing before hanging up. Investigators tracked down the robbery/shooting caller, who confirmed someone hung up the phone the first time he called in, frustrating him, and he had to call back a second time. By the time police arrived, a person was dead. Investigators said that the following day, Williams hung up on several more people, including a security officer who was attempting to report a dangerous street racing incident. The operator, again identified as Williams, said “Houston 911, do you need medical, police or fire?” The caller only had time to say “This is officer Molten. I’m driving on 45 South right now and I am at ……” before Williams ended the call. Although the call was disconnected, the recording captured Williams saying, “Ain’t nobody got time for this. For Real.” The officer called in again, and a different 911 operator picked up and assisted him. Investigators reached out to the officer, who also confirmed the “hang up call” on that day. Police say Williams admitted to disconnecting the calls because she “did not want to talk to anyone at that time.” Investigators said Williams’ actions prevented and interfered with the callers’ ability to request assistance during an emergency and charges were filed against her. Williams’ bond was set at $1,000.


Rob- This is why I like the private sector.  We get to fire people in the private sector. The government wants us to depend on them?


Paul – She needs to spend time in jail

John – A year and one day –


2-The Ferguson Effect


A Chicago police officer pulled up to an accident scene earlier this month and nearly lost her life when dealing with the people involved with the accident.


The female officer, a 17 year veteran of the CPD got into a physical confrontation with a man who was high on PCP and decided not to use her firearm although the man beat her head into the pavement repeatedly until she lost consciousness.  


Her superintendent spoke to the Chicago Tribune and stated ”As I was at the hospital last night, visiting with her, she looked at me and said she thought she was gonna die, and she knew that she should shoot this guy, but she chose not to because she didn’t want her family or the department to go through the scrutiny the next day on national news”


While we understand what she was thinking we have to mention that she very well could have died and when she lost consciousness she lost control of her firearm, thereby effectively giving it to a VERY bad guy.


John – I find this very sad. What would have family have gone through if she had died?! That would have been far worse.

Rachel – Lesson for us: think about this very thing before you ever put on a gun. If you can’t overcome these obstacles, if you know that, in the worst case scenario when your life is on the line, you wouldn’t choose to pull the trigger, then don’t carry a gun.


3- 7 killed, 32 wounded in Chicago weekend shootings 10/15/2016, 01:48am

Seven men were killed and at least 31 others have been wounded in shootings across Chicago since Friday evening.

The weekend’s most recent homicide happened Saturday morning in the Little Village neighborhood on the Southwest Side.

Rob- Why should it change?


4- Gun Control 101

There has been a wealth of information about the Clintons provided by Wikileaks during the month of October.  It should come as no surprise that the establishment media chooses to ignore these revelations.  You know, Donald Trump made some inappropriate comments 11 years ago!  There just isn’t enough time in a 24 hour news cycle to cover both stories.


One of these issues was discovered in the email communications of Hillary’s campaign manager, John Podesta.  Clinton and her staff were working on an essay for Marie Claire magazine to further their gun control agenda.  The emails being exchanged made it clear that Clinton and her staff were selectively discarding gun uses that did not further their agenda.  According to AWR Hawkins of Breitbart News, a story about a shooting where a black man, Jordan Davis, was killed by a white man did not make the cut because they assumed the incident was racially motivated.  This case is summarized in Andrew Branca’s, The Law of Self Defense.  Davis’ killer was convicted of numerous charges, including murder.  However, Davis was involved in escalating the confrontation and allegedly pointed a shotgun-like object and threatened to kill the white man.  The focus of the article was supposed to be about domestic abuse victims.  Selective use of data to further an agenda is stacking the deck and inappropriate.  


Clinton also asserted that “thousands of children die” from guns.  This is another case of manipulation of facts.  Gang members aged 15 to 17 that are involved in criminal activity are included in these figures.  However, the statistics are presented to give the impression that they are speaking of the deaths of innocents.  You can say that cats kill people if you include lions and tigers.


Rob- vet your media.

John – I think the Instapundit has had it right.


4- Interview  R. P. Ruggerio Book three of the series “Brushfire Plague”



5- DGUs  (at beginning) These discussions are NOT legal advice. Some of us are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive Gun Use segment is intended as information, NOT as training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.


Don’t Bring a Bat to a Gunfight

“Have you ever been hit on the head by a bat?” That was the question the bat-wielding Philip Keys, 30, asked a 22-year-old couple in a St Cloud, Minnesota Wal-Mart parking lot. When Keys closed with the retreating couple and raised his bat to strike, the husband pulled his legally possessed CCW and ordered the attacker to drop his bat.  

Showing more sense than his appearance would indicate, Keys let loose the bat and fell to the parking lot. Repenting his sanity, he got up and walked away. He was allowed to leave by the CCW Permit holder. No shots were fired, and the victims were unhurt. Police later arrived, located and arrested Keys, who could face second-degree assault charges.  

Although all the elements of a justifiable self-defense shooting were there: Ability, Opportunity and Intent, the husband first chose to rely on his shouted orders and the sight of the gun to stop the attacker. From the reports, Keys seemed well within the Tueller Limit when commanded to stop, putting the CCW carrier at significant risk of injury or death. Fortunately, the unstable man did stop, giving this DGU the best of all possible outcomes: an attack safely ended without a shot being fired.  

We commend the couple for their actions in the attack: they were situationally aware and moved to distance themselves from the threat, and when retreat was no longer possible, and the requirements of the Deadly Force Triad had been exceeded, the CCW carrier used his weapon to dissuade the criminal. The man exhibited considerable humanity in giving the attacker one more chance. He then correctly allowed the batman to leave. Even more, the man had the foresight to obtain his Concealed Carry Permit and then to carry his firearm, even though he and his wife were only going to a “safe” Wal-Mart.


Well done, people. Well done, indeed.  

I think we can certainly chalk this up as another win for POGO.  You listening Bloomberg?      


Photo courtesy of the Stearns County Jail

Paul – Great use of restraint.


You CAN’T Have it Your Way!!!

Two young adults and three juveniles found they couldn’t Have it Their Way in an Indianapolis, Indiana Burger King. Their city-wide string of nine violent armed robberies in three days came to a halt when one man interrupted their spree. Fate was kind to the victims, the public-spirited citizen happened to be a concealed carrier and just happened to be a firearms instructor.  

The five entered the Burger King in hoodies and masks and carrying guns. One juvenile immediately pointed his gun at a cashier and demanded money. The CCW carrier had seen the quintuple putting on their masks and followed them inside. When the workers were   threatened, the instructor acted. As he ordered the robbers to the floor, one armed juvenile turned toward the customer, who opened fire. In the exchange of fire, the robber fired one to the instructors five times, who connected with a superficial wound to his opponent’s arm. The criminal dropped his firearm and ran from the Burger King.  He was followed by his four accomplices, one who also dropped his gun. The citizen, and all the the employees and customers in the restaurant were unhurt in the gunfire.  


The five were later arrested by Indianapolis police. Four of the master criminals immediately confessed their crime spree to the police. We wonder if the fifth was at the hospital being stitched and doped up. All five could be charged with felony armed robbery and kidnapping. The wounded juvenile could face an additional felony charge of attempted battery by means of a deadly weapon.


Police commended the actions of the firearms instructor, as do we. He could have certainly taken the safer, and probably wiser, path of simply being a good witness. However, this sheepdog chose to act to protect the innocents. Well done, sir.   


Rob- Again, was this well practiced defender wise or lucky?


Paul – what are you doing following robbers into a robbery site?


Rachel – agreed with both. Also, sometimes gut feelings are true. But in a life or death situation, you’d better be REALLY sure you can trust your gut feeling before doing something like this. In the end, #wewerentthere.

Gary –


The gray council-

We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.




6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close





Hey Paul let me know if you need me to come with and climb around caves so you don’t hurt your back looking for antique Japanese rifles! 😉


Congrats on the Shield 9mm, Paul! I tell customers at the range I’d buy three if I could justify the spending, I have six different ways to carry them! -Clayton



Thanks for having Charlie Cook on the show! Charlie, I am proud of you for furthering your instructor skillset. Very cool of you being known for shotgun riding!




Working hard to keep those recipes off the air, thanks for appreciating me Gary! -Clayton





Thanks for the coverage of GRPC; I was registered last year and unable to attend. Dallas would certainly make things easier for me in 2017.


To add to the the “can of worms” John mentioned, anyone interested in this subject should check out Krisanne Hall’s podcasts at krisannehall.com. Search for “convention” in the upper right corner of her site and you’ll find her five part series on this subject. She references the Congressional Research Service’s opinions on the subject and notes that Congress has not been ignoring this possibility. Evaluate her opinions for yourself, but the series is well worth a listen by anyone who wonders about the effectiveness of such a convention or how it might function.


Also, I am completely against a national reciprocity agreement. Anytime we invite government, especially the Federal government, into our business it ends up badly for freedom. We are simply asking for a subsequent congress or regulatory agency to establish a system that we will regret. As much as a pain as it is now, far better in my opinion to let gun states be gun states, and not force them under a big umbrella with the likes of CA, NJ, MA, or HI. It won’t end well for gun owners. I would rather see this issue worked at the state level with mutual agreements.



San Diego


Paul – The 14th amendment should be  


Rob- Are we going to play hardball back?  What has playing by the rules brought us?



Hi all!

Thanks for the GRPC coverage, much appreciated from all of us who couldn’t make it.

It was interesting to hear your George Zimmerman interview. He’s always been painted as a loose cannon, yet he sounded very polite and relatable. I am grateful he was able to help Paul through his struggle with an evil prosecuting attorney.

Also appreciate you folks dishing out political advice to people who think their vote doesn’t matter! Even if you can only make a difference in your local government, that adds up!

I appreciate the coverage on Mr. Falconer stopping the terrorist in St. Cloud. That one hit home for me, I’ve been to that mall! I have a lot friends in St. Cloud.
The attack had a few silver linings around here: showing the world an IDPA shooter saving lives with his skill set was a good one!
A substantial number of sheep-people realized things like this can happen anywhere and that they didn’t have a way to stop maniacs with knives unless they got some training and acquired weapons of their own.
I feel it also got a lot of criticism off the backs of people like us who already carry. I just had a friendly encounter with two police officers in Champlin, Minnesota, after which they referenced the mall stabbing and said they appreciated me being armed.

Stay polite but stay dangerous!

We had a listener send us this link http://m.startribune.com/vikings-fan-in-wisconsin-stabbed-7-times-in-altercation-over-inflatable/396670751/


Even though it is not a DGU I wanted to mention it in the listener feedback segment.




I’ve not yet been so, uh, inspired to STOP the podcast playing in my ears and immediately go to my email machine and send you a note.  At 1:37:00 in episode 390 (GRPC episode), John said, “The key thing to remember about a convention of the states is that they can propose anything, any changes, they have no rules. Once you have a convention of the states anything can be proposed, including getting rid of the Second Amendment.”  This is correct.  However, your unstated–but glaringly obvious–belief is that these proposals can come out of the convention of states as new law by conventional fiat.




What you are thinking of is a Constitutional Convention, the likes of which we have had only once.  A convention of states is merely a way for the STATES to propose Constitutional amendments.  So far, only the Congress has proposed amendments.  The states have never done so, even though clearly given the authority by the Constitution through a convention of states.


Every amendment that is proposed by the convention of states must go through the exact same process of getting ratified by three-quarters of the states’ legislatures.  That process will keep every bad idea (and probably most good ideas) from ever becoming ensconced in our great Constitution.  A convention of states is NOT “opening a can of worms.”


Please, John, do not pass along faulty information that shows yourself ill-informed.  Instead, advocate for a convention of states since there are so many issues that our corrupt Congress would NEVER propose, including term limits for law-makers and judges and requirements for balanced budgets.


With all due respect and admiration,



John – I’d like to respond to Chris since I’m mentioned in his email. His presumption that I thought anything proposed by a Convention of the States became instantly law is erroneous. Having taken two semesters of Constitutional Law in college I know as well as he does what Article V specifies. However, I still do think that a Convention of the State is a can of worms and I don’t think this is ill-informed. As reasonable people,we will continue to have a difference of opinion.


Rachel- I wasn’t present for the discussion on the last episode, but I’ve had plenty of conversations on the subject. I am not in favor of a constitutional convention, or an Article V convention (many people distinguish the two). There are lots of reasons, so I’ll just mention one right now: people. What people exactly is it who would be involved in this convention of the states? (probably some sort of delegates….chosen by the people….let me think, isn’t Congress made up of delegates…chosen by the people?) What people would be writing amendments? What people would be responsible for ratifying and enforcing these? In short, why do we think a new system or set of rules or amendments will make a difference? If the people of the United States have gotten us where we are now and are keeping us here, I don’t believe a new system is really going to change that. I was raised in a cult that was obsessed with always creating a new system. Anytime things were messed up, a convention was called and new principles and systems were taught. We implemented them rigorously. It never fixed anything. A new system will not fix broken people.


That having been said, I could be wrong. Either way, you are absolutely entitled to your own belief, and I still support your efforts to create change in the way you believe is most effective. If we end up with a convention of the states, I absolutely hope it ends up well.




Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- I wrote about babysitting.. And carrying around small children.  The article is called “Guns and Kids- should you be armed around children”  It was my first article for the blog at  Second Call Defense.  My articles are up at Clash Daily.  Ammoland.  Slowfacts. That is at slow facts dot wordpress dot com.  


John, tell us what’s new at your blog No Lawyers Only Guns and Money


I want to give a shout-out to Buckeye Firearms for their great use of technology to advance gun rights. They have a smart phone app that will tell you who the pro-gun candidates are by putting in your address. The other important blog post of the week concerns the support for the universal background check initiative on the Nevada ballot by a number of casino chains in Las Vegas. 15 out of the 24 official hotels for the SHOT Show are owned by companies that have donated between $25 and $50K each to the gun control effort. If Question 1 passes, the SHOT Show should and must be moved out of Las Vegas. You can’t reward the enemies of freedom. Check the post to see if your hotel hates freedom.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.


Paul – SHOT or NRA?


We are a proud founding member of the Self Defense Radio Network, We would like to suggest that you listen to other shows on the network as well like…


Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank R P Ruggerio for joining us today.  So for Charlie Foxtrot, Festus, Craig, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Rachel: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.


(after show close) How could we have made this episode better?


(DO NOT READ)Look at the shooters club by Bob Mayne and Ben Branam.  For $75.00 a year, $6.25 a month, you get 24/7 access to some fantastic training and audio podcasts that you can’t get anywhere else.  Subscribing from the link in our show notes helps Bob and Ben as well as helps us here at the Polite Society Podcast.


(DO NOT READ)Join your local civil rights group like the New Jersey Second Amendment Society, Arizona Citizens Defense League, Gun Owners of California, Commonwealth Second Amendment,  Connecticut Citizens Defense League, Florida Carry, Georgia Carry, Georgia Gun Owners, Grass Roots North Carolina, Illinois Carry, Maryland Shall Issue,  Michigan Gun Owners , Michigan Open Carry, and  Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners.


There are Minnesota Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance,  Nebraska Firearms Owners Association,   Citizens for a Safer New Jersey, New York State Rifle & Pistol Association,  Palmetto Concealed Carry, Open Carry Texas, Texas Firearms Freedom, Texas State Rifle Association. Tennessee Firearms Association, Virginia Citizens Defense League, Virginia Open Carry,  West Virginia Citizens Defense League, wisconsingunowners.org, and Wyoming Gun Owners.


For our Canadian listeners, and their supporters, join the Canadian Shooting Sports Association and the Canadian National Firearms Association.  If YOUR state or local organization isn’t read each episode, then send us an email and we’ll add them!


(DO NOT READ)The Polite Society download app is out on Amazon for Android and the I-phone app is in I-tunes and it is called Podcast Box.  They are located by our old name, Politics and guns.  Hot links are in our show notes.


Episode 390 – GRPC After Action

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/390.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- News Segment 

3- GRPC After Action

4- Interview Segment 2: George Zimmerman

5- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:


1- Introduction

Paul: Welcome to the Polite Society Podcast powered by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Saturday, October 8th, 2016, I’m Paul Lathrop

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and we have a guest interview with George Zimmerman.

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll talk about how the Federal agents had local police to send them license plate scans … from gun shows.

Charlie: I’m Charlie Cook, and we will also talk about a big 2nd Amendment win in the 9th circuit.

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in one of our DGU’s we will talk about the terrorist attack in Minnesota that was stopped by a good guy with a gun. So climb aboard,

Charlie: strap in

John: and hang on!

Paul:  episode 390 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


(Paul- Rachel is away this episode, so we’ll start with Rob.  How have you been since GRPC.


Rob- I went to the range.  We had the bay to ourselves so we could conduct a little move and shoot exercise.  I bought a new outside the waistband holster from Concealment Solutions.  It is the sidewinder pro, and it is much more comfortable than my old holster.  I also got a horizontal magazine pouch from Blade-Tech.  I had fun with Bill and Greg on The Firearms Chat.  I’ll be on Armed Lutheran Radio with Lloyd Bailey this Tuesday.  I had a great time with Jeff and Robyn Street at the Gun-Rights Policy Conference, and I had Jeff on the recent episode of Self-Defense Gun Stories.  September was a new record month so thank you to our new listeners.  Paul and I will host Bill Frady’s Lock and Load Radio on Monday evening October 17th.


John – Since GRPC I was a guest on Bill Chachkes’ The Firearm Chat talking about the riots in Charlotte and how the pistol purchase permit forced people to see other means of self-defense. On Sunday, Barb and I will be working the Grass Roots North Carolina booth at the Asheville Gun Show. Our statewide elections are very close and the pro-gun candidates need all the help they can get.





Paul/Susan Paul is back to working after GRPC – new shield – range report. Susan recovering from surgery.


Promo about upcoming training classes here. (Jeff Street class)( June 24, 25th 2017.  Beyond Concealed Carry Enhanced.  9am -5pm both days. Richmond, IL)


Live read ACLDN


2- News 1

Big Brother is at it again.  According to a recent Wall Street Journal article, federal agents from Immigration and Customs Enforcement have conceived a plan to monitor you.  It seems that the feds were utilizing data from license plate cameras at gun shows in Southern California.  Perhaps they are trying to close the infamous “gun show loophole?”  Of course, many Second Amendment advocates are concerned about this apparent violation of Fourth Amendment protections.  


Even the ACLU stated that this, “highlights the problem with mass collection of data.”  The agency is viewing two completely legal activities (purchasing firearms and crossing a border) to determine who is likely to be involved in criminal activity.


Erich Pratt of Gun Owners of America, expressed his group’s opposition to such tactics.  He stated, “information on law-abiding gun owners ends up getting recorded, stored, and registered, which is a violation of the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection act and of the Second Amendment.”  


Other people quoted as objecting to this practice include the gun show’s CEO and John Chigos, CEO of PlateSmart Technologies, Inc.  When a company selling these products believes this is targeted abuse of the technology, you can be fairly certain these practices are questionable.


An internet search of the topic revealed that The Department of Homeland Security issued a Privacy Impact Assessment related to this type of activity.  The document provides flowery language regarding training, privacy risk and limitations.  However, it is clear that ICE intends to use such data, “to help locate the subjects of enforcement actions and investigations.”  It also states that they will not create a database from these activities.  How many of you believe that?


John – Could you imagine if pro-gun people scanned license plates and posted them on the Internet after a Moms Demand event? The media would be all over it.

Rob- ICE runs guns to Mexico.  ICE can’t find illegal immigrants, but they can find my license plate at a gun show.  President Obama has weaponized another branch of government.

Gary –

John – The answer to your question is that ICE crafted this plan in 2010.


2- News 2

There is some good news coming out of the courts this week.  The U.S. District Court for the Northern Mariana Islands rendered a generally favorable Second Amendment ruling.  This is refreshing after the disappointing 9th Circuit ruling on the Peruta case.  


The case was filed by Paul Murphy, a persistent man as you’d expect from an Army Ranger and war veteran.  Murphy challenged seven aspects of the Commonwealth’s statutory law including:  Licensing and registration, storage at home, large capacity magazines, rifle calibers above .223, an “assault weapon” ban, transporting operable firearms and a whopping $1,000 tax on handguns.


Chief Judge Ramona Manglona cited the “plain language” of the Second Amendment as well as the Heller and McDonald decisions in her ruling.  Although she upheld a ban on concealed carry by citing Peruta, she upheld the right to open carry.  Judge Manglona recognized that the Commonwealth cannot create limitations to public carry that result in virtual elimination of the right to bear arms.  The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals seemed to miss this logical conclusion in its Peruta decision.


Manglona struck down the “assault weapons” ban as it relates to rifle accessories.  These accessories include pistol grips, thumbhole stocks, folding or telescoping stocks, flare launchers, flash suppressors and forward pistol grips.  In an unusual display of common sense, the judge pointed out the folly of banning accessories that increase one’s ability to shoot accurately.  Yes, it really is desireable for the shots to hit their intended target!


The Commonwealth’s $1,000 handgun tax was struck down with particularly strong language.  The Court stated, “The power to tax is not just the power to fund the government, it is the power to destroy.”  Judge Manglona recognized the tax, “comes close to destroying the Second Amendment right to acquire ‘the quintessential self-defense weapon.’”  The Commonwealth’s gun registration system was also eliminated as it was deemed unjustified on the grounds of public safety.


On a negative note, the judge did uphold the ban on magazines with a capacity of more than 10 rounds.  The reasoning for this decision is familiar; it could reduce deaths in mass shootings.  Although we do not agree with this particular aspect of the ruling, as a whole, this decision is a big win for the good guys and gals.  If only more Federal court judges would apply the law as thoughtfully as Judge Manglona.


John – We were VERY lucky on this case. As Paul said, Mr. Murphy represented himself.

Rob- I thought he was represented by the SAF?


Gun Quotes- I want a government small enough to fit inside the constitution.  Harry Browne


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest (Name).

Live read Shooters club


3- GRPC report

Rob- Part of GRPC is absolutely inspiring. We see champions of human rights from across the US and in fact around the world.  Then we hear Sidney Powell, Esq., author, Licensed to Lie: Exposing Corruption in the Department of Justice

4- Interview 2 – George Zimmerman


5- DGUs  (at beginning) We are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive Gun Use segment is intended as information NOT as training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.


Because: Texas!
Four men attempted to rob a Conroe, Texas jewelry store, and received a very Texas-like welcome.   


The four men in black entered the store with guns drawn; demanding jewelry, purses and valuables. As an employee drew a gun, one or more of the attackers opened fire. Multiple employees, probably three or more, returned the thugs’ fire. The tables were definitely tipped in their favor when Jeffrey Turner, of Jeff’s Jewelry, added his AK-47 to the fracas.  

According to Conroe Police Lieutenant Dorcy McGinnis; “There was a lot of gunfire.” That’s really an understatement, as news video shows glass blown out of the doorway and many bullet holes in the store’s plate glass windows. Some of those holes appeared to be Texas-sized. Three criminals fled in a Dodge Charger, leaving the fourth’s body, the one who was the first to fire, in the shattered doorway. The getaway car was abandoned, and the escapees are still on the loose. Thankfully, none of the store’s customers or employees were hurt in the gun battle.

This is not the first time Jeff’s Jewelry has been robbed. Two years ago, a plumber’s van backed up to the store before opening time. Five men jumped out and used sledgehammers to break down the doorway. They stopped when they saw an employee grabbing a shotgun. Yelling; “They’ve got guns! Let’s get out of here!”, they ran away. That important lesson was lost on this latest group of criminals. Jeffrey Turner certainly learned from the experience, and brought in the additional firepower of an AK-47 to better defend his customers and employees. All those who decry the so-called assault weapons should reflect on what this good gun in the hands of a good guy did: it served to successfully defend the lives of innocent victims.


   All criminals should think twice about robbing a jewelry store in Texas. Crime doesn’t pay, especially when it might just get you a Texas-sized reception with some very capable civilian firearms.

Charlie-have you seen that “shopping in texas video” where someone pulls a cork from a bottle and everyone draws their guns?

Rob- Family were employees.  They needed their guns to protect themselves.

John – Shows why you need a standard capacity magazine – that is more than 10 rounds.

Paul – And the employees only dropped ONE of the bad guys.

Charlie- isn’t that how Massad Ayoob started out?  As for high cap mags, I tell students bad guys have friends.

Rob- The store employees need training and practice to save their family.

John – We forget about the impact of stress.


Another Night In Chicago:

Meanwhile, in The City of Peace, that violent burg known as Chicago, a motorist was forced to defend his life when assaulted by two armed thugs. The 22-year-old victim was sitting in his car with another man when two men with pistols threatened them and demanded their money. The concealed carry permit holder reacted, shooting one of the robbers in the head. Treamel Gray, 23, died at the scene.

The coroner ruled the death as a homicide. But, unlike the vast majority of the killings in Chicago, this one was a justifiable homicide, and the police will not file charges.   


Treamel Gray’s Facebook page provides a window into the life — and perhaps death — of the man. Gray’s Facebook username was TKillar and his page features a profile picture of Gray and a friend pretending to point guns at the viewer. We do know that a legally possessed weapon allowed two men to survive the attack of TKillar.




A Gunnie Saves Lives in Jihadi Mall Attack

With a cry to Allah in his throat and a knife in his hand, a man rampaged through a St Cloud, Minnesota mall, leaving a bloody trail of ten victims. The Somali immigrant, dressed in his security guard uniform, asked some if they were Muslim before stabbing the victims with a large knife. Others were brutally knifed without a word. One man stepped into that desperate situation and ended what is now known by everyone, but the Feds, to be a terrorist attack. Surveillance videos show the suspect striking at the defender, who fired his CCW firearm in return. The attacker got up to resume his attacks three times before the final shot.


Jason Falconer is the man who ended the Jihadi attack. Officials and the media quickly button-holed him as a police chief. But, he’s much more than a cop: He’s a gunnie! One of us. And we can – and should – be more like him.  

The established media could have easily provided a fuller picture of this hero, but it was left up to new media to provide the real story: Falconer was a small-town police chief and a current part-time cop. However, that is only a small part of the man. His full-time job is managing Tactical Advantage, his shooting range offering sales, gunsmithing services and personal security training. He’s also an IDPA competitor and three-gun shooter. And he’s a dedicated concealed carrier.  But mostly, he’s a sheepdog, someone who’s dedicated a large portion of his life to improving his capabilities and helping those around him. And in this, we can all certainly be like him.  


Radical Islamists (there, Mr. President, we said it for you,) were quick to embrace the mall knifeman and claim responsibility for the attack. This homegrown terrorist was apparently radicalized and instructed via the internet by ISIS. Social media and Google Drive are delivering ISIS’ glossy terror magazine, Rumiyah, to potential jihadis worldwide. The on-line magazine suggests a campaign of knife attacks designed to attain a reasonable kill count, advising that “the more gruesome the attack, the closer one comes to achieving the desired objective to terrorize an entire nation.” The Islamist terror converts are asked to prey on small crowds, or individuals walking alone in a street, park, forest, beach or quiet neighborhood.

It’s obvious to most that this “open-source jihad” is an active and growing threat in America. As already noted, these distributed attacks are best fought by a distributed defense: that is, an armed populace. In this, Jason Falconer’s Minnesota mall example is important; it shows what a man who has trained and practiced, carrying a concealed weapon, and acting with courage and resolve can do. Falconer acted to protect his family and those around him; he is the prototypical good man with a gun doing good things. We can all do that, we can take responsibility for  our own safety and the safety of our families. We can get training and practice and carry.  And unfortunately, it looks like we will need to.


Jason Falconer, be like him. POGO. Now, more than ever.  

Charlie – part time police & retired police vs armed citizen

Rob-  Charlie, the media thinks all solutions come from government.  We are the solution.  IDPA Paul.  Told you IDPA was good training.

Paul – the bad guy was wearing a security guard’s uniform- that could have been a bit difficult to react to


We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close

Text message #1


Gotta agree with Ty about IDPA 100%. It’s a valuable avenue of experience. Don’t treat it like a game. Treat it like training.



Listener e-mail discussion


Writing to both Tom@GunTalk and the PS folks

I live in WA state, and it’s doubtful anyone but Hillary will win here (see my reference below). A listener on Gun Talk suggested that — since he also lived in an overwhelmingly Democratic state— in order offset or potentially divide the Democrat vote in the future, he was going to vote for Green Party candidate Jill Stein.

Everyone— would you be willing to discuss this tactic on air? The goal is to make the best use of my vote to support the 2nd amendment.



John – I’m not sure if it makes a difference. However, it is the down ticket candidates that will matter.
Gary –

Rob-  I understand a protest vote since so many Republicans have betrayed the right of self-defense.  Where is the CCW reciprocity bill?  Where are the local republicans who use local pre-emption to promote firearms ownership?



Hey all,

Been meaning to email about the DGU where some criminals decided to have a shootout in a Walmart parking lot. You were discussing the concept of not knowing who the good and bad guys are and Paul said something that really unnerved me. He said he’d know which ones are bad because they would be the ones running away. I couldn’t disagree more! If I find myself in the middle of a critical incident and I have a clear escape route I am immediately running away! Don’t shoot me Paul!
Especially since I live in a Duty to Retreat state. It’s required, and also a good idea.

Thanks for the show, appreciate the hard work. Stay safe, and more importantly stay dangerous.
Can I get a shout out to my friend Jeff who keeps forgetting to POGO? We ended up in downtown St. Cloud at night (the night before the terrorist attack) and he was not wearing any of his guns.

-Clayton from Minnesota



Hey guys,
I was just wondering if you guys have ever heard about the convention of states. I think it’s Article 5 of the Constitution and what you think about it as a means to get our country back.
I’m not a new listener but this is the first time I have sent in feedback.
love the show keep up the good work.


Yours truly Chris



John – The thing to remember it could be opening a can of worms. Anything could be proposed.




Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- I wrote that “Distractions are Cheap and Elections Have Consequences.”  I took exception to the phrase freedom will prevail.  No, it hasn’t.  Freedom is fragile.  You can’t flush it away and claim you’ll recover it in 40 years.  I looked around the world where millions of people voted themselves into grinding oppression.  We’ve done that in states and cities here in the US.  Does anyone expect Detroit to recover?  How about Chicago or California?  If you aren’t sure whether to vote and be politically active, these examples of failed democracies should motivate you.  They certainly scared me.


I also reposted an article my wife had on “The Blaze”.  She noticed the similarities between the billionaires we have attacking the human right of self-defense and the billionaires promoting state propaganda about who we should have sex with, like sex with underage children.  That article is called Billionaires Buying the Laws They Want


Those articles are up at Clash Daily.  Ammoland.  Slowfacts. That is at slow facts dot wordpress dot com.  


John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money


I did a post on Wednesday about Michael Bloomberg’s attempt to buy himself another attorney general for Pennsylvania. His previous effort turned out poorly as Kathleen Kane resigned in disgrace after being convicted of a felony. His new effort is to get anti-gun Josh Shapiro elected. Bloomberg has invested $250K in this election and that constitutes almost 10% of the monies raised by both Shapiro and his opponent St. Senator John Rafferty combined. I hope the residents of the Keystone State reject Bloomberg and his puppet Josh Shapiro. If only every one of the million deer hunters voted for gun rights than other stuff it would be a foregone conclusion.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.


Charlie – when can we expect more “Riding Shotgun With Charlie”? …not soon enough 😉


We would like to thank Charlie Foxtrot for writing up show notes for us. Even though you don’t hear him on the air he is certainly part of what you do hear. Look at his blog at not one more gun law dot blogspot dot com


Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank Charlie for joining us today.  So for Charlie Foxtrot, Festus, Craig, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Charlie: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.


(after show close) How could we have made this episode better?


(DO NOT READ)Look at the shooters club by Bob Mayne and Ben Branam.  For $75.00 a year, $6.25 a month, you get 24/7 access to some fantastic training and audio podcasts that you can’t get anywhere else.  Subscribing from the link in our show notes helps Bob and Ben as well as helps us here at the Polite Society Podcast.


(DO NOT READ)Join your local civil rights group like the New Jersey Second Amendment Society, Arizona Citizens Defense League, Gun Owners of California, Commonwealth Second Amendment,  Connecticut Citizens Defense League, Florida Carry, Georgia Carry, Georgia Gun Owners, Grass Roots North Carolina, Illinois Carry, Maryland Shall Issue,  Michigan Gun Owners , Michigan Open Carry, and  Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners.


There are Minnesota Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance,  Nebraska Firearms Owners Association,   Citizens for a Safer New Jersey, New York State Rifle & Pistol Association,  Palmetto Concealed Carry, Open Carry Texas, Texas Firearms Freedom, Texas State Rifle Association. Tennessee Firearms Association, Virginia Citizens Defense League, Virginia Open Carry,  West Virginia Citizens Defense League, wisconsingunowners.org, and Wyoming Gun Owners.


For our Canadian listeners, and their supporters, join the Canadian Shooting Sports Association and the Canadian National Firearms Association.  If YOUR state or local organization isn’t read each episode, then send us an email and we’ll add them!


(DO NOT READ)The Polite Society download app is out on Amazon for Android and the I-phone app is in I-tunes and it is called Podcast Box.  They are located by our old name, Politics and guns.  Hot links are in our show notes.


Episode 389 – Operation Blazing Sword

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/389.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment: 

2- News Segment:

3- Interview Segment 1: Guest Erin Palette Part 1

4- Interview Segment 2: Guest Erin Palette Part 2

5- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:


1- Introduction

Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast sponsored by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Monday September 12 2016, I’m Paul Lathrop.

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we talk with Erin Palette about gay gun owners coming out of the closet to other gays about owning guns.

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll talk about Ruger’s matching program for NRA-ILA donations.

Rachel: I’m Rachel Malone, and Second News or DGU.

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and we talk about a good DGU where the victim was initially charged with murder … so climb aboard

Rachel: strap in

John : and hang on!

Paul:  episode 389 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob- I ordered an ambidextrous handgun for my wife.  That means I have another gun to sell.  Sighted in my two new rifles at 50.  Now I have to move them out to 100.  Rachel and I made an advertisement for Buckeye Firearms.  Ben Branam and I put together another episode of Self-defense gun stories.  Ben is on the modern self-protection podcast that is part of this same network.


John – Had dinner with Prof. David Yamane of the Gun Culture 2.0 blog. We’ve had him as a guest here on the show before. I’m working on modifying the stock of a Ruger American Rifle. It’s plastic and I’m trying to stiffen it up a bit. Donald Trump was in Asheville this afternoon and early evening. Tickets were picked up very quickly. I watched part of his speech and he did mention gun rights.



  • SREC meeting. Politics never takes a break. Sometimes we have to. During the times I have to take a break, I’m so thankful for those who keep working. Last weekend I was rejuvenated and ready to jump back in. While I was at the MAG-40, the Republican State Convention voted to again make Constitutional Carry the 1st legislative priority. It is the job of the SREC to make this happen, and it’s MY job (and other activists’ job) to make sure they do their job. I’m so happy to see Amy Clark, the Vice-Chair of the Republican Party of Texas, taking this job seriously. I love her plans for pushing legislative priorities. However, the plans could still get derailed. Texans, please plan to come to the December SREC meeting where plans will be settled – or, watch the livestream from home so you can stay updated.
  • Text from a friend who just got her first handgun. She’s a survivor, a victor, and I love seeing her journey of redemption.





Paul – Susan can’t join us tonight. She is getting some rest. Been on a metric ton of radio shows and podcasts.


Promo about upcoming training classes here.



2- News 1

Paul – Ruger made several announcements during its investor conference call and webcast In August.  Michael Fifer, the company’s CEO, announced Ruger’s Take Action campaign.  This refreshing program will provide a $5 million challenge grant benefitting the NRA-ILA.  He stated that this is being done to inspire “our customers and all freedom-loving Americans to take action in support of the Second Amendment, especially in the months leading up to the November election.”  They are matching contributions to the NRA-ILA, dollar for dollar up to $5 million.  Additionally, Ruger is donating $2 for every gun sold through the November election.  Is this in their best interest?  Of course it is.  They know the well-being of this historic American company is in serious jeopardy.


Only two analysts asked questions on the conference call.  It is not surprising that the CNNMoney analyst, Aaron Smith, felt it necessary to question the executives on the political topics first.  He asked, “how much of an impact … Hillary Clinton and the mass shootings [had] on gun sales…?”  He even seemed confused by the CEO’s statement that Mrs. Clinton is “actively campaigning against the lawful commerce in arms.”  He then tried asked the Ruger executives to quantify their sales performance as it relates to Clinton and the Orlando massacre.  Apparently, if you work at CNN, you must drink the Kool-Aid.


John – Ruger as well as Beretta, Smith & Wesson, and others are also donating significant sums to the NSSF’s GunVote campaign.

Rob-  Hillary is used to taking greenmail money.

John –  Financial industry donations – can donate to Hillary but not Trump due to Pence.


Rachel- Guns in Some Arizona Schools-  Defending those you love begins with the attitude that your loved ones are worth protecting. Now the remaining question is how to how to defend them.  Administrators and staff of private schools in Arizona asked the state attorney general if they could go armed at school.  The Arizona attorney general issued a ruling that any recognized member of a school safety team would be exempt from state and federal gun free school zones. The original exemption might have been put in place to allow precision rifle teams or military drill teams on campus.  It might have been written so a reenactor could bring old artifacts on campus for history class.  In any case, the law says that arms are allowed on campus with permission, and that exemption includes arms which are stored on campus.


Paul- There is an analogy we often talk about, between having fire extinguishers on campus and having guns on campus.  In both cases, we do what we can until the second responders arrive to help us.  That makes sense wherever we are, and is not confined to our homes.


Rob- That brings up a great question.  Fires take minutes to develop.  Mass murders can be lethal in seconds.  That says that time is more critical in an active shooting emergency than in a fire.  Most schools have a fire extinguisher in every school hallway and on every floor.  When seconds are precious, what does it say that we put two guns on campus and keep them locked unloaded in a safe behind another locked door in a principal’s office?


Gary- It says that private schools and daycare centers in Arizona have taken a first step.  We can guide them from there.


Rachel-I want to hear from listeners who work at schools. Does your state have a provision for you being able to carry a firearm if you obtain special permission? Have you gone to the school board (or whoever has authority to grant permission) and asked? If not, why not?


John – Chicago Man Pays Good Guys with Guns to Walk Streets, Preserve Safety

A Chicago citizen worried about crime is using his own money to pay for good guys with guns to walk the streets of neighborhoods and preserve safety.


The Chicago resident — De Mudd — says he spoke to Alderman Walter Burnett (27th Ward) before launching his plan and now pays a security company to put men with guns and handcuffs on the streets.


Mudd has spent $5,000 for the security “since mid-August and anticipates spending $50,000.” He says he does not mind spending the money to keep the neighborhood safe. He also stressed that he does not blame the police for the growing threat of crime in the area. Rather, he believes the police department is stretched so thin they cannot adequately patrol every part of the city.


Mudd also suggests that the solution he has undertaken for crime in his neighborhood is not a fix-all for every part of the city. He said, “I have solved the problem for my neighborhood, but what I’ve done is I’ve  just pushed the problem to another street corner in Chicago. That’s not the results that we, as citizens, should be looking for.”

Paul –

John – High end, wealthy,  neighborhoods in Seattle have done this while voting for gun control.

John – It would have been nice to see Mr. Mudd fund these security guards in the Southside.


Rob- Socialists politicians charge a fee to regulate your right to own a gun.  The state says it has the right to regulate your rights.  The state then says it can charge you a fee.  Now some politicians are saying they can charge you anything they want as the bill you for mandatory licensing, for mandatory registration or a required carry license.  The latest war on your rights is about the cost of concealed carry licenses in California.


The california legislature just sent a bill to Governor Brown’s desk that would let sheriffs and chiefs charge any fee they could justify.  Opponents say this legislation is an obvious attempt to limit a right by imposing undue costs.  This is particularly true in the failing state of california where most counties are struggling to pay their current expenses and their pension debts.


Professor John Lott pointed out that “background checks in D.C. cost $125.”  The state checks if you have outstanding traffic tickets when you get your driver’s license, and that costs pennies. This places an undue tax on the poor who live in our failing inner cities.


Other states have required smart guns.. Even though the so called biometric gun might cost tens of thousands of dollars.. And both law enforcement and politicians are exempt from those laws.. Of course.


John- This is similar to the Obama administration requiring gunsmiths to pay a 2500 dollar annual registration fee or New York City charging 4 times as much for a permit as in the rest of the state.


Gary- The government says it needs to regulate me, then it charges me so it can make larger political kickbacks with our tax money.


Rachel-So is California doing some kind of fundraiser and planning to start issuing more carry permits? Unfortunately, I think that’s too optimistic.




Gary-Gun Quotes Liberty cannot be preserved without general knowledge among the people. John Adams


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest Erin Palette.



3- Interview 1 Erin Palette Part 1





4- Interview 2 Erin Palette Part 2


5- DGUs  (at beginning) We are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive Gun Use segment is intended to promote discussion and consideration, NOT as advice or training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.

John – Amityville Horror: Young Man Cleared of 2nd Degree Murder In Defending His Mother

A young New York man experienced his own version of an Amityville Horror when he was charged with 2nd degree murder after defending his mother from a violent attacker.  Tephonte Smith, 18, shot Rashad Woolridge, 28, in the neck with a 12 gauge.  Minutes before, he had stopped a fight between his mother, Stephanie Sims, 33, and Woolridge, her ex-boyfriend. A furious Woolridge returned 10 minutes later, yelling for Smith. He was heard to scream; “Where you at, Tephonte?” just before the fatal gunshot. Police found Woolridge dead outside Smith’s bedroom, with a handgun underneath his body. Despite every indication of a justifiable self-defense shooting, the Amityville DA charged Smith with second-degree murder. However. the charges were dismissed when the grand-jury returned a no true bill.  


Smith had known the deceased for the years during Woolridge’s cohabitation with his mother. The couple’s relationship degenerated into violence, and a restraining order was granted to Sims. Not unexpectedly, Woolridge ignored the paper and assaulted his ex. He then apparently brought a handgun to deal with the only thing that had effectively resisted his anger: Tephonte Smith. Fortunately, Smith had the means to counter the armed madman.   


Paul – New Boyfriend Defends Lover From Old

In the City of Brotherly Love, the new lover killed the old in a tale more ancient than civilization itself. In this particular version of the all too common scenario, an old boyfriend was desperate to see his girlfriend, so desperate in fact that he climbed through her kitchen window at 1 in the morning. He was met by his ex — and her new boyfriend — and then pushed back out the window. LIke an eons old bad habit, the ex returned, this time using a second story window to get inside the house. There, he brutally attacked the mother of his two children. The new boyfriend came to the damsel’s rescue and shot the attacker in the chest with his gun.  

The old boyfriend died shortly afterward in the hospital. The new boyfriend left the scene before the police arrived. The police are looking for the new, saying they would like to get his statement – and maybe just a little more. As of this writing, no charges have been brought.


It’s a fact of the human condition that this tragedy of three parts has been around before fire. Those that think eliminating guns will somehow eliminate these crimes are sadly mistaken…. likely as deluded as the old boyfriend.


John – Not smart to leave the scene.

Win the race to the phone.


Gary – Woman Shoots Home Invader Attacking Husband

Things were looking very bleak indeed for a Port Richey, Florida homeowner when three armed men broke into his house, pointed a gun at him and demanded he drop to the floor. However, he had a couple of aces up his sleeve — his wife and a gun. As the early evening break in unfolded, the woman ran to her room for a gun. She returned to the living room and found the three standing over her husband going through his pockets. “Freeze!” she shouted, but the trio spooked and ran toward the door. At another “Freeze!” one of the intruders turned toward her with a gun. She fired, slamming a round into the intruder’s shoulder. To protect his wife, the husband jumped the wounded suspect and fought over his firearm, which discharged twice. A neighbor arrived to help, and between the two they subdued the criminal for the police.


Michael Jay Shackelford, 46, was arrested at the hospital and charged with home invasion robbery with a deadly weapon. That weapon was reported as stolen. Unsurprisingly, Shackelford was similarly sketchy; he was a paroled criminal with a warrant out for his arrest — for violating that parole. Police are still searching for his two accomplices, but they probably will need more than the assistance of the brave woman, her husband, and the neighbor.


John – Politicians ask why anyone needs a 30 round magazine and/or an AR or AK.

Rob- Teamwork can conquer all, or at least most.

Paul – POGO

Rachel- women are often expected not to have a gun or shoot. I’ve encountered that and found it frustrating. Maybe this worked in her favor.


Gary – Two Men Came To The Aid of a Mother: One is Hospitalized, the Other Had a Gun

Early in the afternoon, the mother of a small infant was attacked by two men in a Shawnee, Kansas Wal-Mart parking lot. While placing her young child in the car, she was stuck on the back of the head and knocked to the ground. Her screams brought a Good Samaritan to her aid. However brave, the unarmed man was no match for the two armed thugs and he suffered several gunshots wounds to the face and chest. A second citizen ran to the scene, but there was a critical difference, that man had a CCW license, training — and his gun.


In the ensuing gun battle, the second Samaritan hit and killed one attacker, and received a minor wound in return. The other thug ran off, and was still being sought. Photos show the dead man lying on his side, left arm over his forehead, while paramedics work on the mother and police secure the area. The woman and the wounded Samaritan were taken to the hospital in critical condition. Both victims were later upgraded; the woman is expected to be released soon, and the man was awake and alert and slated for surgery. The infant was fortunately not harmed. As of yet, police do not have a motive for the attack.


We can only commend the tremendous bravery of the two men that came to the mother’s aid.  However, this DGU perfectly illustrates that all the bravery and best intentions in the world are of little use unless they can be backed up by force. The second Good Samaritan, through the use of deadly force, almost certainly kept this bad situation from getting much, much worse. As a true first responder, this armed citizen and his chivalry, bravery, and foresight, as well as his firearm, is a tremendous example of our guiding philosophy of a good guy with a gun, doing good things.    

Well done sir, well done, indeed.  


Rob- I’m glad there was video.


Rob- Are you armed in your car?

A concealed carry holder in Granite City, Illinois dropped off a friend late at night after work.  One report says the driver was in the car.  A second report says the two men were standing next to the car when a stranger walked up to them.  The stranger presented a gun and announced a robbery.  The concealed carry holder drew his firearm and shot the robber.  This is where the news reports start dropping details.  We do know that the local prosecuting attorney praised the victims for defending themselves.

(news interview clip)


John – Another story says that Granite City ranks high in the number of carry permits. Given it is just north of East St. Louis.


We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Listener e-mail discussion


Ty writes in


I listened to the discussion on competition shooting with interest.  Paul made a comment that points out exactly why he should be shooting competition, he said he was “comfortable” doing what he was doing.  A good stage designer will put you in uncomfortable positions and force you to do things that aren’t easy.  It’s much different solving someone else’s problem they have presented to you.  I know many people who are excellent shots but when put under the pressure of the competition have a hard time getting shots on paper.  You are doing yourself a disservice if you don’t give it a try.



Paul’s reply to Ty


I STRONGLY disagree. A Small amount of discomfort is a good thing, it makes you sharp. A large amount of discomfort (what I honestly believe that I would feel) would not at all be beneficial.


The last thing I need are people who have no clue about me or why I carry telling me that they know so much better than I do what I should be doing. Or strutting around with a race gun and tons of extra equipment thinking that they are better than I am.


I train A LOT. I practice A LOT. I have done both under pressure. I don’t need someone that is clueless except that they can score more points than I am at some game telling me that I need to do this or that.


I am sorry if I seem overbearing, but as you can see I am rather passionate about this. Is competition bad? Not for everyone. Am I going to go to one? Not in the near future, and if I do I will leave my gun in the holster.


Rachel-My lifestyle is to run toward the things that scare me and do them until I am no longer uncomfortable. I know that that is my best path to self-improvement and getting rid of fear empowers me. That’s why I started doing competition a little this year. On the other hand, I’ve seen competition shooters get very comfortable with their niche, and perhaps they need to move out of their comfort zone and make themselves uncomfortable again.

Rob- Take what you want and leave the rest.

Gary – That is not how we grow the culture Yes


Rob-  I found the competitors to be very welcoming.  You don’t have the right equipment, so use what you have.  You need a mag, here, use mine.




Rachel- The following email has been shortened due to time constraints. Please see the website for the full email.

Dear Polite Society,

I have been listening to the podcasts for the past few months and was especially interested in your interview with Joseph LaJoy in episode 385.

Eye issues seem to be a theme among listeners, and especially for us whose eyes are not getting any younger. . . . Interestingly, Mr. LaJoy describes a big problem with notch and post sights in that the eye/brain is not readily able to effectively utilize the five different lines of the typical notch and post sight which leads to all kinds of home-made modifications. . . . What is not being addressed in a sudden, chaotic, and violent encounter is the sympathetic nervous system (SNS) response with the immediate effects of adrenalin and cortisol on vision. . . .

The Hex-Site Sighting System was designed around the science of how the visual system (the eye and the brain’s interpretation) responds under stress. The website contains a wealth of information on the science behind this sighting system and the experience of actual users. (www.goshen-hexsite.com)

I have no financial interest in Tim’s company, but I am a personal friend and a satisfied user. . . . I enjoy the podcasts and look forward to hearing more from instructors who use more “science based” principles and training methods.


Henryetta, OK


John: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- I helped a doctor in California write a rebuttal to a gun control article that was published in his state anesthesiologist journal.  That article is called  “Taking the cure to stop violence”  It is on my blog at slow facts dot wordpress dot com.  John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money.


I did a quick post this evening before the podcast. It featured pictures of people waiting to see Donald Trump’s campaign plane arrive at the Asheville Regional Airport. Unfortunately, we missed it as he arrived sooner than expected. Given Hillary Clinton’s recent comments saying that half of Trump’s supporters were “a basket of deplorables” and that they were “irredeemable”, I thought it interesting how ordinary my fellow deplorables looked. I really do think that Hillary thinks in her heart of hearts that those who don’t support her – especially those of us who believe in gun rights – are irredeemable and deplorable.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.

Paul – We are all flyover country people to her

Gary – We would like to thank Charlie Foxtrot for writing up show notes for us. Even though you don’t hear him on the air he is certainly part of what you do hear. Look at his blog at not one more gun law dot blogspot dot com


Rob: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank Erin Palette for joining us today. We would like to ask you to listen to the other shows on the Self Defense Radio Network like The Gun Blog Variety Cast and Geeks Gadgets and Guns So for Charlie Foxtrot, Festus, Craig, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, and Paul,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Rachel: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.

Thanks everyone


(after show close) How could we have made this episode better?


(DO NOT READ)Look at the shooters club by Bob Mayne and Ben Branam.  For $75.00 a year, $6.25 a month, you get 24/7 access to some fantastic training and audio podcasts that you can’t get anywhere else.  Subscribing from the link in our show notes helps Bob and Ben as well as helps us here at the Polite Society Podcast.


(DO NOT READ)Join your local civil rights group like the New Jersey Second Amendment Society, Arizona Citizens Defense League, Gun Owners of California, Commonwealth Second Amendment,  Connecticut Citizens Defense League, Florida Carry, Georgia Carry, Georgia Gun Owners, Grass Roots North Carolina, Illinois Carry, Maryland Shall Issue,  Michigan Gun Owners , Michigan Open Carry, and  Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners.


There are Minnesota Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance,  Nebraska Firearms Owners Association,   Citizens for a Safer New Jersey, New York State Rifle & Pistol Association,  Palmetto Concealed Carry, Open Carry Texas, Texas Firearms Freedom, Texas State Rifle Association. Tennessee Firearms Association, Virginia Citizens Defense League, Virginia Open Carry,  West Virginia Citizens Defense League, wisconsingunowners.org, and Wyoming Gun Owners.


For our Canadian listeners, and their supporters, join the Canadian Shooting Sports Association and the Canadian National Firearms Association.  If YOUR state or local organization isn’t read each episode, then send us an email and we’ll add them!


(DO NOT READ)The Polite Society download app is out on Amazon for Android and the I-phone app is in I-tunes and it is called Podcast Box.  They are located by our old name, Politics and guns.  Hot links are in our show notes.


Episode 388- Marty Hayes of ACLDN

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/388.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment: 

2- News Segment 

3- Interview Segment 1: Marty Hayes Part 1

4- Interview Segment 2: Marty Hayes Part 2

5- DGU Segment:

6- Listener Feedback segment 1

7 – Listener Feedback segment 2

8- Listener Feedback segment 3 and show close

1- Introduction


Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast sponsored by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Saturday September 3rd 2016, I’m Paul Lathrop

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll revisit the Punta Gorda Florida training incident that resulted in a death.

Rachel: I’m Rachel Malone, and the 9th Circuit is attacking gun rights AGAIN

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and in our top DGU story, Rob Pincus had one, that wasn’t… so climb aboard

Rachel: strap in

John : and hang on!

Paul:  episode 388 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


John – I’ve had a most interesting week. It started off with breakfast with none other than “Doc Wesson”. Doc is every bit as engaging and funny in person as he is on the air on The Gun Nation podcast. We need to have him back on sometime soon! I’ve included a snapshot of Doc in the show notes as virtually no one knows what he looks like. Then it was off to the gun show in Greensboro where my big purchases were a spool of green paracord and a box of 105 grain .38 caliber bullets that I’ll get around to reloading someday. I’m not sure what all I’ll do with 1200 ft of paracord but the price per foot was so much cheaper that way I couldn’t pass it up. Finally, I got a call from Alan Gottlieb – yes, that Alan Gottlieb – asking if I would present on social media at the Gun Rights Policy Conference. I won’t spoil the news about someone else who got a call earlier asking that someone to be on the same panel. Oh, and one more thing. If anyone is interested in a new deer rifle or a rimfire rifle, you might want to check to see if your local Walmart still has the Ruger American Rifle in stock at less than wholesale prices.



-First week back at music teaching for the fall semester, and I am thrilled.

-Attended a live TV broadcast on the UT campus regarding campus carry. It was surreal to see holster clips on belts. 🙂 The forum seemed like they were discussing whether or not campus carry should be allowed. It’s like they are in denial that it is in fact law. The anti-gun members talked at length about how they were caught completely off guard last legislative session and the other side won because they were so well-organized and had great turnout (yay us). They also mentioned constitutional carry and how the Republicans have made it a priority and, because of the political leanings of Texas, the great evil of permitless carry is sure to happen soon. Yay us again! 🙂 Let’s hope they’re right!





Promo about upcoming training classes here.


2- News 1

John – As previously reported, retired librarian Mary Knowlton, 73, of Punta Gorda, Florida was shot and killed during a police-sponsored community demonstration.  Although the investigation is currently active, Chief Tom Lewis has broken his silence on the matter.  As he said, “Typically, the police department are the ones who show up and take care of your pain.  We’re not typically the cause of it.”  But, when a total lack of safety culture exists in a group, something like this is bound to happen.


The fatal flaw in their system was that live ammunition was stored IN THE SAME BOX as blanks!  Well, that is just one of the problems.  They also, routinely it seems, allowed weapons capable of firing lethal ammunition to be pointed at people during demonstrations.  


One of the excuses offered by Chief Lewis was the size of the department.  He believes having only one armory somehow was a contributing factor.  


Of course, NOW he has enacted policies to prevent incidents like this from happening again.  These policies include banning live weapons during scenario-based training and storing live ammunition and blanks separately.  He has also gone as far as posting policies and updates to their website.


He will not resign for the stated reason of departmental stability.  It appears, however, that a casual attitude surrounding safety is the issue here.  How many people taking such classes think to themselves that police officers are gun experts and there is no danger?  How many of you have been to a class where you were not even allowed to point a blue gun in an unsafe direction?  Always, always, always follow the safety rules recited at the introduction to each Polite Society episode!


Rachel-We know that armed citizens are statistically safer than law enforcement. Many citizens do not. Stories like this make people who don’t understand safety principles think that it’s impossible to ensure safety when handling guns. This makes them afraid of guns, and then they support gun bans. It’s our job to reverse that thinking.

John – Each gun should have checked, double checked, and triple checked by different people.

Rachel- The issue: who is responsible for our safety?

John – You know some schools in some states mandate hunter safety classes in certain grades.


2- News 2

The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals is at it again.  On August 31 a three judge panel of the lofty court ruled that banning firearm sales to those who hold medical marijuana cards does not violate the Second Amendment.  In 2011, S. Rowan Wilson, a Nevada resident, attempted to purchase a firearm and the retailer refused the sale citing a rule prohibiting sales to users of illegal drugs.  You may think that medical marijuana is legal in many states.  And, you would be correct.  However, it is still illegal under federal law.


This situation highlights how sticky things can get when the federal government has criminalized so many aspects of people’s lives.  Isn’t it interesting how things have changed in a few short years.  Although Ms. Wilson can obtain marijuana over the counter, she will have to turn to the black market to purchase a firearm.  Of course, we would never suggest that anyone should ever engage in such an illegal activity.  But, it gives us something to think about.  Most of us were required to disclose whether we used illegal drugs when we obtained our carry permits.  Are there people who believe marijuana is legal in their state and answer this question incorrectly?


John – I’m sure that there are people who answer that question on Form 4473 incorrectly. And commit a felony.


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest Marty Hayes.



3- Interview 1


4- Interview 2


5- DGUs  (at beginning) We are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive gun use segment is intended as information NOT as training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.


Rob Pincus Involved in a Self-Defense Situation

Rob Pincus, the bullet-headed master of all things tactical, found several people unlawfully in his wife’s vacant house. He did what every red-blooded armed ‘Murican would do, he called the cops. Rob found squatters had invaded his wife’s old home. He didn’t confront them, he backed out, drove away and called in the pros.  In his words; “Have a gun? Have training? Have emotions? Have anger? ….. Control yourself. Deep breath. Drive to the end of the block, call the police.”

Five of Denver’s Finest arrested the squatters with their drugs, weapons and outstanding warrants. The police did their job – as Rob did his.  

We applaud Rob for his self-restraint. He recognized that the armed civilian is NOT the police. In his own words again; “Maybe I would’ve gotten into a justified shooting today and had a long arduous legal and emotional aftermath… Maybe I would’ve gotten killed. We’ll never know because I did exactly what I and every responsible self-defense instructor I know advises: Avoid Conflict. Let the police do their job.”

Be like Rob.



John – We have had a lot of DGUs where people think they need to restrain the perp or shoot at the intruder after they’ve left.

Rachel – distinguish between legal, moral, ethical justification. Justified does not = required. Use wisdom.


Obama Gas Station Robbery Ended by Clerk With a Gun

Oh the irony, the chewy, chewy, delicious irony, coated with sprinkles. Columbia, South Carolina is home to a gas station and souvenir shop called the Obama Store. The marquee even features a large, smiling portrait of the world champion gun salesmen himself. At around 3:30 in the morning a man approached the counter and flashed a gun. But, he found the Obama Store was defended by… (wait for it)… a good guy with a gun.

Threatened by the armed robber, the store’s clerk grabbed his own firearm. The thief spooked, firing several shots behind him as he ran. Fortunately, no one was injured. As of yet, no arrests have been made and clerk is not expected to be charged, as he didn’t fire. It seems the patrons and employees of the Obama Store were protected by the lawful use of a civilian owned firearm. Now, who would have expected that? We were told that NEVER happens.


Hmmm, maybe we should try a Bloomberg Store?  Wadayah think, Shannon?


Rachel- poor guy, you’d think of all places he could have a free hunting ground it would be there. What irony.


We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Listener e-mail discussion


Rachel summarized the class perfectly, but there is one thing she left out, and that was a highlight for me.

Kathy stated, when a student walks into our classroom, they see 4 wall, a floor and a ceiling. Pretty boring. But, inside the walls, there is a lot going on, studs, wires, pipes, air ducts, insulation, etc. She said we were going to pull the sheet rock down and examine the inner workings. She methodically went through all the things we already “knew”, and examined the reasoning behind those skills.

Case in point. When I took my for basic pistol class, the instructor said, “Before you use some tool, learn how to fill magazines by hand and by feel, so you can load them in the dark if needed.” I accepted that as a truth without really challenging it. I have taken classes from Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Gunsite, Utah and Utah Instructor, and many others, plus listened to 1000’s of hours of podcasts, read dozens of books, and lots of internet articles. No one ever challenged or contradicted that statement. So, when I started teaching, I gave my students the same advice. As a large, strong, generally healthy male, I have no problems filling a mag by hand. But, in my classes, I would get older, weaker, maybe arthritic women that really, really struggled filling magazines. I would show them my UpLula loader and mention that once you get hand filling down, you should get one of these because they are handy, but in only one case did I actually let the student use it.

And I mentioned this to Kathy. And her response was, “Why wouldn’t you use a tool, if one is available?” and I responded just like I had been taught, “Because sometimes you might have to load a magazine and your tool is not available.” And, I thought that was the end of that. And Kathy came back with “Why wouldn’t a tool be available? Do you carry loose ammo in your pocket when you go about town?” And at that moment, my world came crashing down. She was absolutly correct. You should never have the need to fill a magazine away from your range bag or gun table. I have been purposely and deliberately making learning harder for my students based on a belief I had that does not have a foundation in fact. This type of realization happened to me over and over during the course of the week. Kathy challenged so many things that I had wrong or at least didn’t quite have the whole picture.

As a student, I learned that I need to challenge what I am being taught. As a dual-degreed engineer, with the exception of a very few laws of nature, everything I was taught came with some kind of mathematical proof. By nature, I am skeptical of what I learn, but for some reason, that didn’t carry over to gun stuff. That is something I learned I need to change.

As an instructor, I learned something even more important. When you are teaching a beginning class to someone who has never touched a gun, it is very easy to gloss over the things that seem obvious. But, to that student, you are their only source of knowledge, and what you teach will get ingrained in them as irrefutable fact. Furthermore, 50% of the information presented in the NRA Basic Pistol class or similar entry level classes is never touched on again, even if the student continues on to take a lot more training, and many won’t. Whether we are teaching professionally or just taking a friend to the range for the first time, it is vitally important that what we teach is correct because there may never be a second chance for that student.

But, it doesn’t end there. Class was over and we all went home and resumed our normal lives. A couple weeks later, Kathy posts on Facebook. “I had a student that claimed that you should never use a tool to fill a magazine until you could do it by hand. Can’t quite wrap my head around that, but maybe I’m missing something. Have you heard anyone explain their reasons for this idea, and if so – can you explain those reasons to me?”

As part of the class, Kathy gave us a USB stick with a lot of educational material on it. One of the files was how to be a better instructor, and one of her recommendations was to keep a private journal and, after every class, list what YOU learned. So, Kathy is practicing what she teaches and my interaction with filling a magazine, must have gotten a mention in HER journal. From her perspective, a student challenged her. So, she reached out to her network and asked, what am I missing? It was an excellent conversation.

As promised, Kathy tore the sheetrock down and I learned so much, some new information and some challenges to what I already thought I new. But she also presented material on how to teach our adult students. But, if you took a step back, Kathy was using those same principles on us, HER adult instructor students. So, I would sit there and I would have that epiphany moment and the light bulb would above my head would burn bright and I would say to myself “Wow, I just learned something”, but then take a step back and ask, “how did that happen?”, look at what Kathy did, have a second epiphany moment and the light bulb burned even brighter as I realized, she used this technique, and this one, and that one, and, wow, they really work.


Larry Piekarski

GunSense LLC




This is for Rachel.

I was touring the Texas State Capitol building in Austin last year and as I was exiting the building I noticed a sign designating a special entry for concealed carry holders.  I barely started a conversation with security (State Police?) about it when he had to go attend to some new visitors.  Would you please tell us how this works at the capitol?  I think it is interesting that a government building seems to accommodate concealed carrying visitors.

Thank you,



Rachel-Absolutely – yes, anything legal to carry outside of the Capitol is also legal to carry inside of the Capitol, and it’s always been that way. There used to be no security to enter the Capitol – no metal detectors, just come on in. Then in 2010 there was a dude who fired a few rounds on the Capitol lawn, and they thought, hey, we should have some kind of protection to keep that from coming inside. But most of the legislators carry, Governor Perry famously carries, and there was NO way Texas was going to go for forbidding handguns in the Capitol. So, they put in metal detectors for most people, and a separate CHL/LTC line for those with a license. So, you just walk up to that line, they swipe your license to be sure it’s valid and legit, and then you go on in. No metal detector.





Hey y’all (’cause I’m Southern),

First, I want to add my congratulations to the charges against Paul being dropped. Second, I want to thank Paul for not only getting his story out there, but being willing to be – sometimes painfully – honest about the incident and what he would have done differently and lessons learned. In particular about having a list in the wallet for medications, doctor phone/fax number, and pharmacy phone number.

I look forward to seeing all of you in Tampa for the GRPC!





I hope you guys are right about the election, and i’ll be the first to write in and admit I was wrong. I keep going back to the electoral college map, and I can’t get the numbers to work for Trump. It has been a crazy election season though. If you look inside the polls the third parties seem to be taking votes from Clinton, so they may help. I’m in PA, now a light blue state so I feel I’m forced to vote for Trump on the chance he could swing the state his way.


If Texas secedes i’ll be down though!


Have you guys heard of the free state project (freestateproject.org)? It’s a movement in the libertarian party to get people within the party to move to NH. It’s an interesting concept. They picked a state with a small population so they could have the most influence on the laws and policies on a local/state level. NH is ranked as one of the freest states, with good gun and knife laws.


On a different topic…I know a lot of people are buying guns right now so I’ll throw an option out there that I don’t hear much about. I picked up a CZ p09 about a year ago, and I’m really impressed. It’s run 100% with everything I’ve put through it. Quality is on par with my sig’s and hk’s at a much, much lower price, and has the best feeling grip of any double stack I’ve had. If you want to blow some money anything I’ve seen out of their custom shop has been really nice!


Glad to hear your free Paul!!!!




John – I have heard of the Free State Project. More power to them! I love CZ’s esp the CZ 75




Really enjoying your podcast. Thanks for all that you do.


You discussed the posting of illicit “No Guns” signage. I am not aware if there is a standardized sign in North Carolina, but I have seen several that simply cannot be legal.


I was required to enter an office building in the Durham area and noticed, on the way out, a small sticker, barely bigger than a business card, about one inch above the bottom frame of the glass next to the door. It was approximately 3 to 4 inches off the ground.


After securing my firearm in the car, I returned and asked the receptionist in the office that I had visited if the building was “Gun Free”. She was not aware that it was, but agreed that the sticker was more than a little fishy.


I make it a habit of not merely avoiding “Gun Free” businesses. I will usually point out to someone in charge inside that the reason I will not be patronizing their establishment is posted on their front door.


I have no illusion that they will change their mind because of me, however if enough voice their opinion, they may just catch on.


Here’s hoping.


Keep up the good work!




John – No standardization. The anti gun folks have been urging their followers to slap those stickers on stores.





I believe it was Rob who asked how he balances liability of a business to provide protection vs. liability of an amusement park. From the standpoint of liberty, there’s no difference. You are not being forced to a particular location or business. If you don’t like their security, don’t go in. Imagine what happens to the cost of business if owners are forced to guarantee the physical security of patrons against the actions of a third party over which he/she has no control. It’s basically the same argument we use against the Left when they want to hold gun manufacturers responsible for a third party’s illegal actions. You have choices. You are responsible for you. We can’t force our version of an “acceptable level of security” on private businesses. Think of the slippery slope that creates!


A business should have to provide for physical security for those potential dangers under the owner’s control – safe facilities, safe environment (e.g. all the heavy stuff isn’t stacked perilously on the top shelves), etc.


Now, if you are talking government created monopolies, like your local utility company or courthouse, I can see a liability issue as you generally have no choice in selecting another option.


As for the survey Paul spoke of, taking the same amount of people from each state guarantees a skewed result. I come from North Dakota so am familiar with the political differences between “God’s Country” and California, for example, where I live now. But those states are significantly less populated than the coasts, so taking an equal number would grossly over-represent those states – which of course tend to lean right. If you want to go state by state, you would have to select a proportional number of voters as represented by the states percentage of the national population.


Of course, that completely ignores the fact that we aren’t a democracy and we don’t elect our presidents popularly – so the only valid method to predict the race is to look at the electoral college.





John – Wisconsin



Paul and friends, some follow- up to my prior voicemail (after I’ve had a

couple moments to plan my words).


My thoughts, based on my shooting in several USPSA and IDPA matches, is

that once basic weapon skills is acquired, competition shooting helps

pressure test your skills execution and your marksmanship execution.  Can the

Skills that were learned on a static training range; can they be performed when

it really counts (either when they count for points, or when it is in a

CCW/DGU encounter)?


Competition shooting has provided me with frequent opportunities to performing skills relevant to a CCW encounter:  performing draws, shooting target engagements & multiple targetengagements, shooting at near targets, far targets, moving targets & small targets.  Mixed into that practice are also movement, re-aquirement of shooting position/stance, shooting around objects/cover, one-hand shooting or shooting while handling objects. Reload and perform malfunction clearances as necessary.  I also get to watch shooters that are better than

me perform those similar tasks, and I can learn by watching.


The downside to completion is the low number of repetitions performed for the time spent.  And that each rep or scenario is only performed once (exception Steel Challenge, where the best 4 of 5 runs is counted for

score).  But I argue that these are higher quality repetitions because you have additional performance pressure (being timed and scored) and additional social pressure (anxiety, being watched by others).


Thoughts from the group?


I try to encourage other shooters (people that shoot, but have not yet shot in a USPSA/IDPA competition) to try competition pistol shooting.  I tell them that:  “Targets

are 18-inches wide, and most targets are between 5 and 15 yards away. You

get the highest points by hitting targets in the center.   Sometimes there may be targets that are smaller, further or more challenging.”   [Then I show them a YouTube video of a minor/junior shooting a USPSA/IDPA stage, and ask them if that is something they could do.]


I try to relate competition shooting to a shooting activity that they are already familiar with (shooting a B-27 silhouette seven to fifteen yards away), instead of a scary unknown good- ol’ boy insider-club activity. Thoughts from the group  (Rob’s show bio mentions local IDPA matches, and Rachel shoots state rifle matches) about starting competition shooting?


Thanks for all the Polite Society gang does (including Charlie Foxtrot, behind the scenes).



Rachel- I’ve never shot a state rifle match. Advice: go to a Run n Gun. If you can come to Texas or Oklahoma, it’s worth the drive. If not, contact me and I’ll help you set one up in your area.




Gary: John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money


While I’ve had a few posts this past week, there has been nothing special. However, I am working on a long post regarding campus carry in Kansas. The six public universities will officially have campus carry effective July 1, 2017. They were all supposed to send their implementation plans to the Kansas Board of Regents this week.  From what I can tell, they aren’t kicking and screaming about it like the University of Texas but merely kicking.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.


We would like to thank Charlie Foxtrot for writing up show notes for us. Even though you don’t hear him on the air he is certainly part of what you do hear. Look at his blog at not one more gun law dot blogspot dot com


Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank Marty Hayes for joining us today.  So for Charlie Foxtrot, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking in four words)


Paul: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Rachel: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.


(after show close) How could we have made this episode better?


(DO NOT READ)Look at the shooters club by Bob Mayne and Ben Branam.  For $75.00 a year, $6.25 a month, you get 24/7 access to some fantastic training and audio podcasts that you can’t get anywhere else.  Subscribing from the link in our show notes helps Bob and Ben as well as helps us here at the Polite Society Podcast.


(DO NOT READ)Join your local civil rights group like the New Jersey Second Amendment Society, Arizona Citizens Defense League, Gun Owners of California, Commonwealth Second Amendment,  Connecticut Citizens Defense League, Florida Carry, Georgia Carry, Georgia Gun Owners, Grass Roots North Carolina, Illinois Carry, Maryland Shall Issue,  Michigan Gun Owners , Michigan Open Carry, and  Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners.


There are Minnesota Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance,  Nebraska Firearms Owners Association,   Citizens for a Safer New Jersey, New York State Rifle & Pistol Association,  Palmetto Concealed Carry, Open Carry Texas, Texas Firearms Freedom, Texas State Rifle Association. Tennessee Firearms Association, Virginia Citizens Defense League, Virginia Open Carry,  West Virginia Citizens Defense League, wisconsingunowners.org, and Wyoming Gun Owners.


For our Canadian listeners, and their supporters, join the Canadian Shooting Sports Association and the Canadian National Firearms Association.  If YOUR state or local organization isn’t read each episode, then send us an email and we’ll add them!


(DO NOT READ)The Polite Society download app is out on Amazon for Android and the I-phone app is in I-tunes and it is called Podcast Box.  They are located by our old name, Politics and guns.  Hot links are in our show notes.


Episode 387 – FREEDOM! Paul Tells His Story

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/387.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- News Segment 1

3- Interview Segment 1: Kathy Jackson

4- Paul’s Story Part 1

4a – Paul’s Story Part 2

5- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:


1- Introduction


Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast sponsored by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Thursday, August 25th, 2016, I’m Paul Lathrop

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we talk with Kathy Jackson about Instructor training.

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll talk about Hillary’s plans for the Second Amendment

Rachel: I’m Rachel Malone, and we will hear Paul tell us his story about being falsely arrested in Gretna, Nebraska.

Paul C: I’m Paul Carlson, and we have news about the Pennsylvania Attorney General who ran afoul of the law in a big way.

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and we report on a DGU one town over from our own Charlie Foxtrot .. so climb aboard

Rachel: strap in

John : and hang on!

Paul:  episode 387 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob- Spoke to Browning about an ambidextrous 1911-22.  They said you can’t get there from here.  I showed the Eddie Eagle Cartoon to a 2 year old, a 4 year old, and their mom.  A good start.  I also wrote an advertisement for the Buckeye Firearms Foundation.  I’ll be on Gun Freedom Radio this Saturday.  And POGO.


John – Remember a couple of weeks ago I mentioned converting a bowling ball into a pivoting base for a gun vise? Let me tell you that cutting a bowling ball in half is a chore using a handsaw! I hope to finish the project tomorrow. In gun related news, I plan to go to a gun show this weekend in Greensboro. I may be meeting up with an unnamed gun podcaster whose voice our listeners might recognize but whose face has never been seen on the Internet.


Rachel – I shot revolvers with Tracy Thronburg, a friend and fellow shooter and instructor. If you ever get a chance to train with Tracy, take it.

I also marked my calendar for a political meeting I’m excited about – well, as excited as I get about politics. The SREC (Texas GOP board) meets Sept. 9-10 in Austin and a major item on their agenda is organizing the brand new Legislative Priority Committee. Constitutional Carry is our #1 priority and if things go as planned, there will be at least one person assigned to spearhead efforts for each priority – using party resources. Keeping fingers crossed that progress doesn’t get lost in bureaucracy. Join me for the meeting – either live in Austin, or through the livestream from your home.

Rob- I trained with Tracy, and learned a lot.  Chris Cerino is in your backyard now.


Gary-  I have atrial fibrillation.  May need electro shock.  New diet, and I lost 35 pounds.. Eating only potatoes for 2 weeks.


Paul Carlson – I spent a bunch of time working on a Remington 700 that needs to get more accurate.  I spent some time getting it sighted in and am getting ready to swap the stock to a Magpul Hunter 700 with a BDM.

I’m looking forward to mounting up an Aridus Industries QDC on my Remington 1100.


I also spent some time making sure my SSA Training Trailer is all squared away and that everything has a place.

Paul L: we got our plan b’s


Paul/Susan- Did anything interesting happen with us? We will get to that in a special segment after our interview with Kathy Jackson. I have to admit that I am usually a little jealous of Rob, as it seems that he is always on really cool podcasts and radio shows as a guest. Well since Tuesday I have been on Bob Mayne’s Handgun World Podcast, Safety Solutions Academy Podcast with Paul Carlson, The Gun Blog Variety Cast with Sean Sorrentino, and Lock and Load Radio with Bill Frady. Appearances are scheduled with Gun Freedom Radio and Tom Gresham’s Gun talk Radio.


Promo about upcoming training classes here.



2- News 1

In a recent article for foxnews.com, Second Amendment champion John Lott provided some thoughtful commentary on Hillary Clinton’s gun control leanings.  As you would expect, Dr. Lott provided substantial support for his conclusions.


He points out that the media fact checkers are in a tizzy because Donald Trump often states that Mrs. Clinton wants to “essentially abolish the Second Amendment.”  As Lott points out, CNN portrayed this as a “persistent” and “false” accusation while the Washington Post calls Mr. Trump’s statements “absurd.”


The trick here is that Mrs. Clinton knows how to play the game.  One day she says that she is “…not looking to repeal the Second Amendment” and “not looking to take people’s guns away.”  However, she has campaigned on gun control.  She supports, “a 25 percent tax on handguns, an assault weapons ban, repeal of laws allowing permitted concealed handguns, and background checks on the private transfer of guns.”  She has also agreed with increased fees and regulations imposed by her husband during his tenure as President.  These regulations saw the number of licensed firearms dealers fall by 73 percent between 1992 and 2000.  


In a recent interview with George Stephanopoulos, Mrs. Clinton referred to Heller as “the decision by the late Justice Scalia.”  Yes, Justice Scalia wrote the majority opinion.  But, wasn’t it really  the Court’s decision?  She would not even concede that the right to keep and bear arms is a constitutional right!


Mrs. Clinton states that prior to Heller, “there was a nuanced reading of the Second Amendment” and that, until that time, there was no argument …that localities and states and the federal government had a right, as we do with every amendment, to impose reasonable regulation.”  Well, it is comforting to know that she is qualified to determine what reasonable searches and seizures, cruel and unusual punishment, due process and double jeopardy limitations should be.  Why not go after the first amendment, too?  There is no doubt that Mrs. Clinton would like to stifle the voices of Rush Limbaugh, Fox News and others who sometimes paint a less than rosy picture of her.


Mrs. Clinton told a group of New York donors, “The Supreme Court is wrong on the Second Amendment, and I am going to make that case every chance that I get.”  Dr. Lott points out that the Supreme Court only reviewed laws that were complete gun bans and another that made it a crime to use a gun.  You would think the Court struck down universal background checks, assault weapons bans and other policies in her large bag of tricks.  Let’s not forget that she would like to repeal the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act in order to bankrupt firearms manufacturers.  Her dutiful daughter, Chelsea, also promised that her mother’s Supreme Court appointments would overturn decisions such as Heller.  More than ever, elections have consequences.


John – One thing that encourages me is that gun companies are starting to step up with contribution to the NRA and the NSSF to fight her. Ruger will match contributions to the NRA-ILA dollar for dollar up to $5 million.



Paul L – Anyone who is paying attention should know that Hillary really IS anti rights, not just anti gun. It’s our duty to inform our friends and neighbors

Rachel- Yes, elections have consequences. The results of the election are a reflection of us as a country. As much as I intensely dislike Clinton and her positions, I believe that if you want to change the reflection, don’t just punch the mirror.   

Paul C – The best news on all of this is that at least Mrs. Clinton isn’t playing a moderate game.  Instead, she is laying it all out and that will be to her disadvantage.

Rob- I’m amazed how the media hides the gun ban that Hillary has called a political priority.


2- News 2  

And now for something completely different.  Well, maybe not so different if you are from New York or Illinois.  The first female Democrat to be elected to the lofty position of attorney general in Pennsylvania has quickly become embroiled in a web of scandal.  


Last week Attorney General, Kathleen Kane was convicted of nine criminal charges. The former Lackawanna County prosecutor had a defense team that provided no witnesses during the trial and the attorney general did not testify on her own behalf.  The charges ranged from two felony perjury counts to criminal conspiracy and obstruction of justice.  At the core of the matter was a plot to discredit her political rival, prosecutor Frank Fina.  Attorney General Kathleen Kane leaked grand jury testimony to the press in order to imply that Mister Fina did not vigorously prosecute corruption.  Of course, Kathleen Kane was implicated in the subsequent cover up of her leaked information.  


In the wake of all of this turmoil, Mrs. Kane’s law license was suspended and fellow Democrat, Governor Tom Wolf, has called for her resignation.  She resigned the following day.  


After the verdict was handed down, Judge Wendy Demchick-Alloy felt compelled to provide these words of admonition: “There is to be absolutely no retaliation of any kind against any witness in this case, either by your own devices, from your own mouth or your hand, or directing anybody to do anything.”  Given the lengths that Mrs. Kane would go to discredit a rival, is it any wonder the judge would believe it necessary to prohibit revenge when prison time is on the line?


Mrs. Kane is currently free on bail while awaiting sentencing.  There is a potential for 28 years in prison.  It would be interesting to know the pressure placed on the judge during the 90 days prior to the hearing!


As you may recall, Mrs. Kane unilaterally canceled reciprocity agreements between Pennsylvania and Utah and Idaho.  She also refused to defend her state’s preemption law from municipalities that were challenging it in court.  These acts should come as no surprise since she was placed in office by the Clinton political machine.  Her elected office was her reward for supporting Mrs. Clinton’s first attempt to win the White House.  She defeated Obama’s choice, Patrick Murphy, in the primary.  Kane was on the fast track to the US Senate.  With a couple of felonies on her record, she will not be among those of us with concealed carry permits.  So, why is it that criminals like her are deciding what is best for us?  As we often say, “elections have consequences.”


Comment- She didn’t launder millions of dollars of foreign money, so she might be convicted.


John – It was not only the Clinton Machine that put her in office. It was ads paid for by Michael Bloomberg. She repaid him with her antigun stance especially with regard to reciprocity. I think he had high hopes that she might go on to be governor or senator.


Rob- She was set for a Senate run.  Was she hired by the Clinton campaign?


Gun Quotes-

The constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms- Samuel Adams


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest Kathy Jackson.



3- Interview 1 with Kathy Jackson.  Instructors are made, not born.

Putting the material together for instruction forces us to learn the material at a deeper level.  What is essential?  What is the best way to present that material?


As an instructor, I ask myself what happened.  What went well?  What can I improve?  Then write down the answers!  There is a lot of complexity behind the scene that makes it possible to present the material and make it look simple.  


You have to thoroughly know what you’re teaching. However, each of us are still in progress and always will be. Karl Rehn has researched some objective standards for instructor shooting levels – mathematically figured out what score on each of many standards would be considered “instructor” level for the top shooting schools. Our goal should be to shoot within that range, on demand, cold. Keep working toward that point; however, you can still teach even if you’re not there yet.


You need to score at least 70 percent of the experts to be competent.  I’ve been training since 1999.  I was leading classes by 2005.  Training on my own since 2013.  I’m not a natural student.  I was persistent and conscientious.  Teaching was the best way for me to continue to learn.


Two tracts for instructor development.  Classes vs mentoring.  We need more instructors, so how do we efficiently develop competent instructors.  We need to talk and we need to show.


Rob- I was struck by the review process you use as an instructor.  

What happened?  What went well?  What can I improve?  Then write down the answers.  That sounds like what I do as a student.  Is that a broader technique for both teachers and students.


Kathy- Those notes let you maintain your skills and develop your skills between training classes.  You will make the same mistakes unless you concentrate on strengthening your weaknesses.


Your timed evaluation reminds me of IDPA where you always are ranked as percentage compared to the top shooters in that event.. And in that particular stage.


Class coming up in Philadelphia.  Annette Evans blogs at Beauty behind the blast.


4- Paul’s Story 1


4a Paul’s story 2


I need to thank my beautiful wife Susan. She has stood by me through this and provided more strength than she will ever know. I need to thank everyone on this show. Beyond co hosts, beyond friends, they have become in many cases my confidants, my counselors, and my cheerleaders. Kathy Jackson, Massad Ayoob, and Gail Pepin. I consider Kathy my friend and mentor. I consider Gail and Mas friends and role models. Before I was even released from jail these people were in contact with Susan and made sure that she had what she needed and were supportive of her when I couldn’t be. I want to thank Larry and Stacy Piekarski for going out of their way to help in a time of need, and of course Marty and Gila Hayes and everyone at ACLDN. Finally I want to thank each and every person who donated, or messaged or posted to social media or in any way got in touch and said “ we believe in you. We know you are innocent and we have your back.”


Unless you have been through something similar you can’t know how much that means to someone who feels like they have their back up against the wall.


Rob- Paul, your story is frightening.  If you were charged, then anyone could have been charged.   You were innocent and they ran you through the legal mill to drain you of tens of thousands of dollars.  What would have happened to you if you couldn’t have raised the money for a defense?


Paul C – We covered a lot of details, including things that you would have done differently, when you joined me on the SSA Podcast and I want to say “thank you” for that.  What would you have done differently if you were in the truck stop facing the same situation right now?


Paul- Lessons learned.  I’d call 911 as soon as the guy started walking towards our truck.  I’d also be a member of the Armed Citizen’s Legal Defense Network.  That means I would have had a great lawyer at my bail hearing.


John – Do you think the less than polite behavior of the student pushed the other guy to overreact?

Paul- Yes.  Wear the mantle of innocence.

John- Do you want to carry less than lethal weapons such as pepper spray?

Paul- No.  I tried a voice.  I was willing to go to guns.

John- Was the driver who made the false accusation an independent driver or company driver? If a company driver, is his company aware of the false accusations? Do you think they bear any liability for his conduct?
Paul L-  
Paul C – For those folks out there that don’t spend a lot of time on the road how do you feel about truck stops and rest areas in general?  Do you see them as areas that concentrate criminal activity?  Are there any suggestions you have for folks regarding staying safe when they are traveling?

Gary – Given what we learned in MAG40 do you think shooting this guy would be justified?


Paul- It is tough to bring legal action against people unless you have a lot of money.


Rob- There is a school boy assumption that someone would face legal penalties for lying to the police.  Is that true?


Rob- It seems the police wanted a case they could prosecute rather than a case that served justice.


Here is Paul’s interview with Bob Mayne on the Handgun World Podcast.

Here is Paul’s interview with Paul Carlson on the Safety Solutions Academy Podcast.


5- DGUs  (at beginning)

Let’s not document murders gone wrong. RM

Here in Peyton Place, Missouri

Our Charlie Foxtrot didn’t have far to go to research this DGU — just to the next town over. An O’Fallon, Missouri woman shot a strange man in her home. In the 911 call, she pleads for help for an ongoing break-in, robbery, and armed assault — then several shots are heard. Police arrived to find Louis R. Gumpenberger, 33, dead from multiple gunshot wounds.  Pamela Hupp, 57, told officers of being confronted in her driveway by a man with a knife, knocking the blade away, and escaping to her bedroom where she grabbed the gun. The gun that she used to defend her life.  

However, something wasn’t quite right from the start.  

Gumpenberger was severely handicapped, left physically and mentally impaired by a 2005 car accident. He lived 13 miles from the death scene, and no one could understand how he could travel that distance since he could not drive. Friends and family described Gumpenberger as friendly and easy-going, even though he did have past violent episodes. He was interviewing for a job in the morning at a firm were he was well thought of as capable and conscientious. Those that knew him could not believe he would be involved in violent crime.  

The same could not be said of the homeowner. Hupp was the last known person to see her business partner before she was brutally murdered. Hupp testified at the trial of the woman’s husband. That conviction was overturned when it was learned that Hupp became the beneficiary of a $150,000 life insurance policy on her parner just days before the murder. The man’s second trial resulted in an acquittal, which naturally shifted suspicions to Huff. Huff was also the last person to see her mother before her body was found beneath her third floor balcony. Now, Huff had killed a disabled man with 900 dollars in his pocket and a note with the name of the man she had tried to implicate.    

After a nearly two week investigation, police arrested Huff, charging her with 1st degree premeditated murder. She was said to have lured Gumpenberger to her house and planting the note and money to again frame her dead business partner’s husband. GPS records from her phone show her travelling to Gumpenberger’s apartment and returning to her house minutes before the shooting. While in police custody, she used a ballpoint pen to stab herself several times. Huff was hospitalized in stable condition and remains held on a 2 million dollar bond.

All this is to illustrate the problems police have when responding to a self-defense shooting. The crime scene is a confusing mess of evidence and witness claims. There’s also a whole range of forensic evidence which needs to be uncovered. Careful, exacting, time-consuming police work, analysis and deliberation is required. The police simply can not know what actually occurred immediately. In the past, we’ve been critical of the police for not quickly declaring an obvious self-defense shooting a “good-shoot.” With what we’ve learned, we’ll endeavour not to make that mistake again.   

This situation also relates to Massad Ayoob’s teachings about the second fight for your life, the one that comes after the gunfight. Education, training and practice come into play here. Knowing what to say, how to act and interact with the police, and how to get assistance is essential; as Paul will surely agree.   

A Sheriff Deputy Wants You To Be a Good Little Victim

Two men entered an Augusta, Georgia Subway restaurant one afternoon. Their actions worried the clerk, so she went to her purse and got her handgun. When one thug jumped the counter and the other struck the employee’s 14-year-old son on the head with a crowbar, she was forced to respond to the deadly situation with gunfire. Cornelius Lamar Harrison of Greensboro, North Carolina was hit in his left side, and was declared dead at a local hospital. His confederate was later arrested at a hotel in the midst of what was called a “medical episode.” Deputies eventually linked him to the Subway robbery and booked him for possession of methamphetamine, aggravated assault and felony murder. When fingerprinted, his real name and record were uncovered. Howard Maurice Harris had outstanding drug charges and, hardly unexpectedly, had violated his North Carolina probation.  


This type of violent crime is unfortunately hardly unique. However, we hope the advice that Lieutenant Allan Rollins provided is one-of-a-kind. Discussing the above hold up, the good deputy stated that a victim should “Always cooperate, stand back put your hands up, make sure they know you are no threat to them. If you become the victim of a robbery, do not try anything out of the ordinary. You don’t want to put yourself in any more danger. Give them what they want, if they just want the cash register, let them have it. It’s only money. Most important part is to remain calm, get all the information you can.”

In the ugly real world, it’s unfortunately that the deputy’s advice could well get you killed. There is no guarantee that the criminals will not give in to violent impulses once the robbery is completed. As in this instance, unneeded violence is often part of the robbery, and once that line is crossed, violence often escalates. Death is unfortunately an increasing trend in modern crime. Lieutenant Rollins’ advice to always submit to the criminals ignores the very real positive lifesaving impact of the aggressive defenses we document each week. We urge our listeners to get the training that will allow them to recognize and respond to the criminal threat.  “It’s only money,” <unquote> — unless it isn’t. Being a good, little victim can be deadly.  


John – As a native of Greensboro, I will say that I do not know nor want to know Mr. Harrison.


Rob- there is a fantasy contract between the robber and the victim.  “You give me money and I leave you alone.”  The thief doesn’t have to obey the contract.


Rachel- the deputy’s advice would probably work if people were inherently good. I happen to believe they aren’t. Humanity has a sin problem. That belief informs my preparation for worst-case scenarios.

Gary –


Paul C – Despite the fact that this situation turned out as best as it could doesn’t mean that everything was done well.  Having your gun on your body is going to increase your likelihood of success  Also, when you start hearing “always” and “never,” time to find someone else to listen to…

Rob- will the robber be between you and your gun?

John – Going to the advice given, it ignores the fact that some criminals will kill their robbery victims so that they cannot testify or ID them.

Rob- People have a fantasy that they can talk the robber out of violence.  The fantasy that violence happens to someone else, but not to them because you are a nice person.

Doctor William Aprill talks about this fantasy.


Geezers Rock!
A 91-year-old seasoned citizen got an uncomfortable feeling when crossing a Detroit-area Rite Aid parking lot: a much younger man was following him. More worrisome, his shadow was approaching and behaving erratically. As he continued to approach, the elder man warned that he had a concealed carry permit. When the erratic fellow suddenly pointed an object at him, the senior fired, striking the man in the neck.  

The youngster ran off, and police found him collapsed in a Petco parking lot across the street. He was treated at the local hospital and later arrested. Police are asking anyone with information on the incident to contact them.  

Paul C – Trust your gut!

We are trainers, but this is not formal training and YOU NEED formal training. The Defensive gun use segment is intended as information NOT as training. As always the opinions of the hosts are only their own opinions and not those of any sponsors or other affiliations.


We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



No 6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Voice mail #1


Text message #1


Desantis Nemesis: works great if it’s the exact model for your gun. I pocket carry S&W bodyguard with no laser. It fell out once. Holster was designed for laser



Paul C – Specific holster for your gun couldn’t agree more!

Rachel-and tighten it correctly for your gun, and test it

Gary –


Text message #2


Evening crew,


I was wondering if you’re involved in an auto accident, what is the general procedure for first responders when they find a firearm in the vehicle?


What would I need to do to get my firearm back once I’m released from the hospital?

Thank you


  1. S. I look forward to checking out some of the podcast on the new network. ☺


Rachel- From my medic sister: “We can give it to security, cop, or a commander, or sometimes they’ll have a family member or friend come pick it up before we transport.”



Text message #3


On episode 386 in the listener feedback section Paul was commenting about wild animals as it relates to self protection and one’s gun choice. He mentioned alligators and crocodiles. I believe it was Rob who chimed in, chuckled, and said, “That’s the other hemisphere, Buddy,” relating to Paul’s mention of crocodiles.

I just wanted to let Rob and the others know that there’s a population of crocodiles in Florida. The numbers are small compared to alligators, and they are a protected species there.

I love the podcast. Keep up the great work.



Rob- Thank you for the zoological correction, Chris.


Listener e-mail discussion


On a previous episode you discussed some West Virginia colleges making firearms off limits even though the state has constitutional carry. Rachel mentioned in passing that she felt that a PRIVATE university should be allowed to make such a  policy. Of course I know she’d prefer that they didn’t.  Let me state that I know Rachel is among the staunchest of gun rights advocates as am I. I also find myself agreeing with her the VAST majority of the time when she voices an opinion (even her views about Trump, but I’ll save that for another email.)

I just thought the topic of privately owned businesses posting their premises as off limits should be explored further.

Like Rachel I also live in Texas. 30.06 & 30.07 signs which ban concealed and open carry respectively carry the force of law. I often hear some site “private property rights” when they say they support such a private business ban.

I think it’s worth pointing out the difference between private property, i.e. One’s home, and private property that is open for public use. The latter is subject to MUCH more regulation.

For instance, in the town where I live smoking is not allowed in any public business. That is a city ordinance. A business owner cannot sit in a chair that he bought, in a building he owns, on a plot of land that he owns if he is open to the public. The same business owner cannot deny service to someone based on race, creed, religion, etc.  That is covered by federal law.  He also must provide parking and ramp access to his building for those who are disabled.  There are also ample OSHA regulations he must follow.  

I’m not particularly fond or government regulation, and I do feel that we are over-regulated as a society.  The idea behind the regulations I mentioned seems to be that they’re needed for the safety and well-being of the customers and employees.  If one follows that logic, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have a discussion about proposing laws that prevent privately owned businesses from denying its patrons and employees their constitutional rights to carry a firearm for self-protection just because he or she enters the premises of said business.

Now if one doesn’t support such a proposal because he or she also thinks the other regulations are not necessary or are too burdensome for the business, I could at least respect that position because I feel that person is being consistent.  If, however, one supports the idea that a business open to the public must adhere to a set of regulations for public safety; I think it’s reasonable to say a person’s constitutional rights don’t end just because a business owner would like to deny them inside his or her business.

I know we still have a ways to go, but I hope getting this discussion started could get us in that direction.  I do like the Senator Hall of Texas bill idea that copies the new Tennessee model of holding anti gun businesses responsible for possible injuries or deaths from mass shooting or other crimes that happen at the business.

p.s. I love the show and appreciate everything all the hosts do.  Paul, I’m very happy that you were ultimately vindicated after that nightmare event you suffered in Nebraska.  Thank you for telling your story on Bob Mayne’s podcast.  Your experience has certainly taught me a few things as well as reinforced some things I already knew.  

Chris (feel free to use my first name on the air)


Rachel- I agree with your logic. If I supported governmental regulations of businesses and thought they were needed for the safety and well-being of customers and employees, then it would not be unreasonable to want the government to regulate against gun-free zones in businesses. However, I do NOT support governmental regulation of businesses. I believe in personal liberty, and that includes other people’s right to be stupid. So, as much as I’d personally love to be able to carry everywhere, in order to be consistent, I have to support the business owner’s right to post 30.06 and 30.07. I AM glad we have a specific sign (i.e., no-gun signs don’t have force of law). And, I would absolutely support the bill making them liable for harm when they disarm us.


Rob- I think of “gun-free” zones as a public nuisance.  Like a landowner leaving an abandoned well or pond on their property.  You can’t wave liability as you expose your customers to the increased risk you created.  How do I rationalize my position with businesses that deliberately expose the customers to risk.. Like amusement parks and sport activities.




Hey polite society crew,

I was listening to your recent podcast, 386, where you were discussing Gary Johnson’s running mate & his anti gun stance.  I haven’t  followed the libertarian party very much & think that they don’t stand a chance at winning & will only draw votes away from Trump.  It’s unfortunate that they are taking a similar stance on guns. Like all of you, I think the 2nd amendment is crucial in this election.  

Yesterday, Rush Limbaugh referenced an article that took a look at voters in Pennsylvania.   Here is the link:
http://nypost.com/2016/08/22/stumped-by-trumps-success-take-a-drive-outside-us-cities/ I wonder if this may be the case around the country?  I travel many parts of NY state, north of Westchester county for my job.  I can say that I definitely see more Trump signs than Hillary signs. That being said, NY City is extremely liberal.  Hopefully, Trump can pull more of the home town crowd his way.

I enjoy the podcast & look forward to them each week. Keep up the good work.


Rob- The purple states will decide this election.

John – New York State is like Illinois – its largest city dominates policy in that state.




Greetings all,

The reason you don’t want to use your hollow point defensive rounds on animals, given a choice, is as stated. You need penetration. Most handgun defense ammo is a compromise. You need enough penetration but not too much. Since there is a limited amount of energy available they design the bullet to expand, which takes some energy, a specific amount to give the needed penetration. A varmint bullet is designed for little penetration but a lot of expansion. Defensive bullets are just too fragile for tougher beasts.


If I’m carrying a .357 mag, for defense I’d use a 125gr HP. If hunting depending on the animal, I’d up it to 158gr HP or even a soft point for its tougher construction and deeper penetration. If using a carbine in that caliber I’d either go to a soft point or even better, a heavier hard cast depending on what I was hunting. The 125gr, which is a fantastic man stopper would tend to leave a shallow devastating wound on even a deer and might even just PO a hog.


As to the polls, don’t forget they can be just as biased as the news media. I’d take little credence in polls. I suspect they are being designed and published to create doubt in the minds of those not supporting Hillary.



Paul C – Good summary.

John – Check who is doing the poll and who they tend to do polls for such as Public Policy Polling does for Democrats.



I sent you guys an email last week stating I thought the best case was Johnson could get in the debates and maybe have a really long shot at making it a three way race. I didn’t like his VP pick at all, but thought maybe we changed his views. I was wrong, he’s still a gun grabbing liberal piece of garbage.


Guess i’ll vote for Trump, but he has no chance.


We’re just screwed, really, really screwed!


Secession anyone???  


Rachel- consider harnessing the power of the protest vote. Candidates, campaigns, and Political parties look carefully at vote numbers. They calculate to determine how many people voted for their candidate, how many people voted against, and how many people DID NOT vote at all. This helps them know how much of their party they have alienated. If they hear massive protests against their candidate but they see the votes show up, they turn a deaf ear to the complaints. They get the message that people will still hold their nose and vote for a candidate even if they hate him that much. If they see they actually lose votes – i.e. there are people in their party who came to teh polls but refused to vote for their guy, they will be much more careful whom they push for nomination next time around.


And yeah, after Brexit, we’re all now talking about Texit. Feel free to come join.


Rob- I think the race is close.


Paul – I think that Trump absolutely has a chance. I want to bring up again that at this point Bush sr trailed Dukakis by 17 points in August. Bush won that one by a landslide.



Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- I wrote about political activism at the local level.  Really local.  We are in the best position to end gun free zones in our schools and hospitals.  This is how you get politically effective.. At five minutes a day for a week.  It is so simple you can do it before coffee. https://slowfacts.wordpress.com/2016/08/14/save-the-children-in-your-neighborhood-with-five-minutes-a-day/  My articles are up at Clash Daily, at Ammoland, and at slow facts dot wordpress dot com.  John, tell us what’s new at your blog only guns and money.


John- I’ve done a few posts since our last podcast. One that might interest any Clint Eastwood Dirty Harry fan is the pending reintroduction of the Auto Mag Pistol. It was the pistol used by Dirty Harry in 1983’s Sudden Impact. It fired the auto pistol equivalent of the .44 Mag cartridge. I don’t know how much it will cost nor if they will have solved many of the original pistol’s jamming problems but it is interesting.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.


Rob- velociraptors beware.

Paul C – You can load that with whatever you want from hollow points to hard cast!


Paul L- We would like to thank Charlie Foxtrot for writing up show notes for us. Even though you don’t hear him on the air he is certainly part of what you do hear. Look at his blog at not one more gun law dot blogspot dot com


Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank Kathy Jackson and Paul Carlson for joining us today.  So for Charlie Foxtrot, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Rachel: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.


Episode 386 – I Still Shot You

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/386.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- News Segment 1

3 News Segment 2

4- Interview Segment 1: Guest Bob Mayne

5- Rant

6- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:

1- Introduction



Paul: Welcome to  the polite society podcast sponsored by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on August 14, 2016.   I’m Paul Lathrop

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we talk about Law Enforcement Officers who definitely need more training.

John- I’m John Richardson and we talk with firearms instructor Bob Mayne.

Rachel: I’m Rachel Malone, and we talk about Kathy Jackson’s instructor development course!

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and we have a defensive gun use story where a Florida man had a bout of road rage, that cost him his life.  So Climb aboard!

Rachel: strap in

John: and hang on!

Paul:  episode 386 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob- I carried every day.  Pants on, Gun on.  I interviewed podcaster and firearms instructor Bob Mayne on my Self-Defense Gun Stories Podcast.  I got in some good exercise.  How about you, John?


John- … What I did in guns this week other than carry is going to sound a bit strange but bear with me. I bought a bowling ball for $1.50 at a church yard sale. Bowling ball you say? Yep. I bought it because I plan to cut it down a bit and mount a vise on it. This will give me a very solid and portable vise to use when I work on my guns. Or assemble another AR.


Gary- ….

Rachel- Paul/Susan – Cornered Cat Instructor development class. 1) You want me to do WHAT with my right hand when I am shooting left handed?  2) Handgun retention “I still shot you” 3) Cornered Cat class.


Rob- Can we start a yelling at TV exercise program?  


  • If you instruct or coach, should you come to Kathy Jackson’s instructor development class? (Can you..)
  • How it has already changed me
    • Demo for students instead of just explaining
    • Gauge progress in awareness, not achievement
    • Book: Inner Game of Tennis – avoid overthinking, have confidence and repeatable results under pressure


Gary – Are we going to discuss the safety rules post on FB on air?



2- News 1-

County Prosecutor Negligently Discharges his Ruger 9mm at restaurant


Madison County Prosecutor Rodney Cummings “Accidentally” discharged his firearm while at the Texas Roadhouse in Anderson, Indiana. Reports say that initially he didn’t know what the sound was and that he thought it was an “electrical explosion”. After hearing the shot, restaurant patron Aaron Taffner went to his vehicle to get his own gun, as he was walking back into the restaurant he saw Mr. Cummings walking out the door with a large hole in his shorts pocket.


After police arrived, they determined that it was simply an accident and they closed the case with no charges being filed.


When interviewed, Prosecutor Cummings said Quote “I’ve been using firearms professionally for 36 years and nothing like that has ever happened before. I assume what happened is that putting it in and out of my pocket WITHOUT A HOLSTER caused the safety to disengage.” End quote  Mr. Cummings also stated that the weapon was a gift from his daughter and he believes that the pistol is properly registered in her name.


Properly registered? Indiana does not have gun registration and as a prosecutor  Mr. Cummings ought to know the law of his state!


What is Mr. Cumming’s first plan of action after this incident? He says that he is going to have the GUN checked out by a gunsmith. He doesn’t blame himself for not properly carrying his gun, he blames the object. We all have a responsibility to the future of gun ownership to be better than this, to know the law, to know our weapon and to know that this “thing” is just an object. It is about the PERSON in control of it, not the gun.


Mr. Cummings, GET A HOLSTER!


Rachel- It is stories like this one that that made people like me think it was stupid and dangerous to carry a gun. But it’s people like John Lott and alternative media like Polite Society Podcast who publish truth. I’m so glad the truth was out there when I went looking for it.


Rob- I am not a county prosecutor and I wonder what would have happened if I had a negligent discharge in a restaurant bathroom.

Paul – It takes more than taking the safety off.


Librarian Killed In Police Training Exercise

73 year old retired librarian Mary Knowlton was killed Tuesday. She died from a single gun shot wound while participating in a Punta Gorda, Florida Police Department force-on-force training event. While police officials termed the shooting “accidental”, it was in fact “negligent” as those in charge failed to confirm that there were no live rounds in any of the training pistols. They were supposed to be loaded with simunition rounds for this shoot-don’t shoot scenario. The Florida Dept of Law Enforcement is investigating the incident at the request of Police Chief Tom Lewis.


Rob- this isn’t the first time we’ve seen an accident like this.  We see firearms that are not intended to be used in the exercise inside the training area.  We see non participants bring a gun into the training area.  The area has to be kept clear of weapons and every one entering the area has to be screened.


John – This incident took place with people who participated in something affiliated with their Citizens Academy. The question needs to be asked why they needed to do force on force training as they were not sworn officers.


Congressman wants to extend the FBI background check timeline

Currently, by law, the FBI has up to three days to complete a background check on potential gun buyers. After three days, the dealer has the discretion to complete the sale if they so choose. Rep. James Clyburn, Democrat of South Carolina, wants to change this. He is proposing a bill that would allow the FBI to have up to 28 days or until the background check is complete before green-lighting a gun sale.


Representative Clyburn stated Quote “Congress must pass my bill, the Background Check Completion Act, to close the Charleston loophole and keep dangerous weapons out of the hands of people the law already says should not own them. The policy should be very simple; no check, no sale.” End quote.


Clyburn’s reference to the “Charleston loophole” once again demonstrates the classic leftist approach of never let a good crisis go to waste. Referring to the incident where a shooter murdered nine churchgoers, the killer was sold a gun after he surpassed the three-day timeline on the FBI NICS check without a denial from the Bureau. It was found after the killings that he had a criminal history including a drug charge that would have disqualified him from purchasing the firearm used in his heinous crime.


Mr. Clyburn also says we need “some moderation” when it comes to the Second Amendment.


Rob- I recently had to wait a half hour for my NICS check to go through.  We almost had to give up and try another day.  That reminded me that all honest gun owners are dependent on the NICS system and the politicians who control it.  Honest gun owners can be stopped by politicians, but not criminals.  Criminals buy their guns criminally, so all a corrupt politician has to do is stop background checks and he has disarmed the honest people.  Does that frighten anyone else?


John- Every time something like this is proposed, we need to send letters, faxes, and emails to our Senators and Representatives. We should follow that up with a call.


Paul –  I know where he can put his moderation. Since the 1930s we have had moderation and look where we are now.

Gary –

Most mass murderers passed their background checks.



-WV university seeks to ban guns amid fear over constitutional carry

Anyone heading to West Liberty University in West Virginia will need to leave their firearms behind.  It doesn’t matter if they are a licensed concealed carrier or if they have a shotgun behind the seat of the pickup.  The university’s Board of Governors voted unanimously Wednesday for a ban on firearms on campus.  That ban violates the constitutional carry law passed last year.  There is a 30 day comment period for the planned new policy.


Other nearby colleges, including West Virginia University, Marshall University, and Fairmont State University, all have similar gun bans on the books.


Rob- Why do university professors and administrators think they are special?  The students and delivery drivers who carry off campus all the time are not a danger on campus.. Except to the delicate psyche of liberal professors who want to be helpless.


Gary- They are not thinking.  They are playing politics with students lives.  John Lott is an expert.  John Benner is an expert on defending schools.  We and our listeners are nothing more than well informed citizens.  We know this is a bad idea.  It is obvious.  So would the school administrators.. if they cared to look.  They don’t want to know the facts.  A bunch of elite statist professors  complained to their management.  Now their management is trying to break the law to please the faculty.  What burns me up is that the West Virginia citizens will pay their legal bills.


Rachel- Campus Carry went into effect in Texas a couple weeks ago. Have we discussed the story where all of UT Austin became an uncontrollable raging firefight and thousands were murdered? Oh wait, that was just in the liberals’ irrational nightmares. That having been said…..I do believe a private university should have the right to restrict or ban carry. I also believe that students (and faculty) should stand up for what they believe. If they want gun control, go to the universities that ban guns (and leave Texas, thankyouverymuch). If you believe in gun freedom and personal responsibility, intentionally select a school that upholds the right to defend yourself. Sometimes standing up for our rights results in personal sacrifice. We are inconvenienced. It costs more. It’s trouble. YES it’s trouble to stand up for freedom.  How do you think our country began? Was it worth it to them?  Is it worth it to you?


Rob- Sure, a private landowner can declare a gun free zone sign, and the security check-point to enforce it.

John – Shannon Watt’s daughter goes or did go to a school that allows campus carry. Hypocrisy much?


Petition fights California gun grab

There is a gun culture in California, and it is pushing back against the recent bills outlawing common firearms.  A businessman from conservative Carlsbad organized a petition drive to restore the right to keep and bear arms in California.  He circulated the petition online and at gun stores statewide.  He needs 365,000 signatures by Sept. 29.


The anti-rights legislation included mandatory background checks before an ammo purchase, a new state database of ammunition buyers, banning semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines, outlaws magazines holding more than 10 cartridges, and prohibits loaning a firearm to a close family member.


Lisa Gunther is the owner of Gunther Guns in Carlsbad. She said, “These anti-gun bills passed but have not gone into effect yet.  We are seeing an uptick in purchases of rifles with bullet buttons since they will be banned in 2017. New buyers are coming out to purchase shotguns and handguns before the lawmakers decide to ban those, too.  People are purchasing more ammunition due to future ammo background checks on the horizon.”


“These outrageous and  unconstitutional bills that passed the California legislature should alarm Californians enough to get out to vote this November. If we lose the Second Amendment, which amendment is next? Think about that. Even if you don’t own guns, your liberty is being eroded.”


The link to the petition drive is in our show notes.


Rob- I have many friends in california.  They show me a lot of people at their petition drive.


Chicago- Where Socialists Ideas go to die

This is tragic.  We’ve commented on the repeated records set by the murderous drug gangs in Chicago.  The city again set a record last week with over 100 people shot in seven days.  In one day, there were 19 separate attacks resulting in 9 murders.  We are watching failed Socialist policies take their toll on the citizens of Chicago.  The staff of the polite society podcast is sorry for them.. And how they voted to bring this on themselves. Let us all learn from their mistakes even if they can not.


Gary- We talked about mass transit in Chicago being a rolling “gun free zone”.  Well there were two attacks by armed robbers on the elevated trains last week.  The politicians won’t learn.


John – I’d be very interested to see a map of these shootings. Are they all in the Gold Coast or is in the South Side or other poor neighborhoods?





Texas Business Owners May Be Liable For Gun-Free Zone Shootings

Texas is already gearing up for the 2017 legislative session, and gun rights will no doubt be a major issue again. Senator Bob Hall is addressing the issue of liability for business owners who ban carry. In Texas, business owners can prohibit license-holders from carrying on their property by posting a 30.06 and/or 30.07 sign. Senator Hall wants to make those businesses liable for “any harm that befalls patrons as a result of being deprived of his or her weapon.”


Hall recognizes that criminals target gun-free zones. He stated, “Businesses that establish themselves as ‘gun-free’ provide a guaranteed path of least resistance for terrorists and psychopathic murderers by ensuring that all of the law-abiding patrons in their establishment, including those licensed to carry a firearm, have surrendered their right of self-defense at the door.” Senator Hall wants to motivate businesses to allow carry. He is optimistic about legislative support for this proposal.


Rachel-In my opinion, this is a very good way of upholding private property rights as well as the right and responsibility of personal protection. It’s a great way of keeping businesses from flippantly throwing up 30.06 and 30.07 signs and claiming they do it “for liability.” If you live in Texas and want to help support this bill, please shoot me an email or text and I will be sure you are on my legislative alert list. rachel@politicsandguns or 512-937-3006


Kim Rhode Medals


One last new item – Kim Rhode won the bronze medal in women’s skeet at the Rio Olympics. She has now won a medal in six consecutive games which is a record for the Summer Olympics. Kim is not only a great athlete but is also a Second Amendment stalwart. Congrats to Kim on her win. She is a great role model and a great representative of the United States.


Rob- Kim lives in Los Angeles.  She lives with abusive gun laws every day.


John – I will also say Kim has only a few sponsors from the gun industry. She doesn’t get the big money.


Rob- Can you say political correctness.. in our board rooms.


Gun Quotes-  Bring a gun to a gunfight.  An armed man will kill an unarmed man with monotonous regularity.  Although it is infrequent, it is not the odds of needing a gun that move you to be armed.  It is the stakes of needing one and not having it close at hand.  –Col Jeff Cooper


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest Bob Mayne

3- Interview 1 -Bob Mayne


4- Rant – I thought that libertarian meant that you stood for personal liberty.


Rather than have a second interview this week I wanted to take a little bit of time and talk about the presidential election again. If you have heard enough of this please feel free to go on to the next segment and listen to the DGU’s but I hope that you don’t. I hope that you pay attention. I hope that you pay attention because I didn’t and it surprised me. I pride myself on knowing politics. I have spent most of my adult life following politics and participating in the process.


As many of you know I have withheld my support of Donald Trump, stating that I wasn’t ready to say that I was going to vote for him. That there were things that concerned me, and I honestly believed that there was a possible way that Johnson could be successful in a 3rd party run for the White House.


Then yesterday happened. As you all know I drive truck for a living. I was just coming off my 10 hour break and getting ready to drive when Rob posted to our staff page on Facebook that William Weld had made some anti gun comments that were available on YouTube.


I had a few minutes before I had to stick the truck in gear so I loaded up the video and forwarded to where Rob said that the comments were. Boy was he right. The Vice-Presidential nominee for the Libertarian party said that he wanted a 5 round limit on rifles and that handguns were worse.


As I stated a few weeks ago I am a 1 issue voter. I vote 2nd Amendment freedom all up and down the ballot no matter the party.  If you trust me to have a gun then you trust me with my own money generally, you trust me to be smart enough to run my own affairs without government sticking their nose in where it doesn’t belong.  Therefore as a 1 issue voter it breaks my heart to say that I cannot support the Libertarian party in this year’s election. The reason may surprise you. It’s not because of Weld’s support of gun control directly, although that does play a part.


It’s because Johnson SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that this was there. Weld proposed some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation as the Governor of Massachusetts. At the very least there should have been several hours of sit down interviews with the potential VP candidate and in this election season guns HAD to be brought up.  I thought that like Trump, who had stated that he supported gun control in the past that Weld had changed his mind and now supported our right to keep and bear arms as stated in the bill of rights. Unfortunately now several media outlets have interviewed Weld, and he has again doubled down on his statements.


Therefore Johnson had to know and not care that the one man that would be a “heartbeat from the presidency”  only supported “hunting” arms. That is a no go for me.


So this year I once again am going to hold my nose and vote for a Republican for the top federal office. While I don’t like Trump I will support him and will give every ounce of my effort and every bit of my voice to elect him and once he is in office I will give the same effort and voice to make CERTAIN that he keeps our 2nd amendment rights in the forefront of his mind during his elected term in office.


Rachel-Paul, I am so glad that you preach so strongly that our job is not done once we vote. The important part, whoever we vote for and whoever wins, is that we hold elected officials accountable. The best officeholder can fall if we fail in this; and the worst officeholder can be held in check if we do our job. Let’s all commit to doing our job to the best of our abilities – whatever that means for each one of us. One of my favorite quotations: “A man has done less than he ought until he does all that he can.”

Rob- Men do less than they ought, unless they do all they can. Thomas Carlyle, (a Scottish philosopher, satirical writer, essayist, historian and teacher.)


5- DGUs


You Can’t  – Temporarily – Fix Stupid

A Florida man had at least two bouts of violent road-rage. His first cost him 11 years in prison – the second… his life. Gary Lynn Durham, 40, died on a Plant City street after a driving confrontation. But, don’t shed too many tears for Mr. Durham, as 15 years ago he murdered a man in a similar road-rage incident. This time it was different; his chosen victim had a self-defense firearm.

Durham, served 11 years in prison for a 2001 road-rage killing. Because of his extensive criminal record, he could have been sentenced to 30 years for snuffing out the life of a 48-year-old husband and father. However, he benefited from the court’s mercy. The judge thoughtfully included 300 hours of community service and issued orders to seek psychological and drug evaluations and anger management counseling. None of that seemed to help, as just a short time after he was paroled, Durham attacked another driver.  


After a minor incident on the street, Durham used his truck to force the other vehicle to stop, and jumped out to confront the driver. The other man got out of his car (not a good idea) and words were exchanged. As the argument escalated out of control, the man pulled his weapon and shot severals times, hitting Durham once. Deputies arrived to find the apparent victim performing CPR on his former opponent. The surviving driver is cooperating with police and has been questioned and released. As of yet, no charges have been filed. The investigation is continuing and the State’s Attorney’s office will provide the final determination.


All this is to emphasize the necessity of carrying every day, everywhere. POGO. But, be mindful of your situation – we would recommend NEVER leaving the safety of your vehicle in a confrontation. You never know when you’ll meet another violent killer released by the legal system.

We will note that only ONE of the many media sources we used in preparing this DGU mentioned the murder Durham committed 15 years ago. The suppression of that important fact is interesting – and troubling. Without too thick of a tin-foil hat, we could postulate the media’s desire to make Durham more sympathetic and cast doubt on the necessity of the shooting, or even perhaps hide the leniency of the legal system. Who knows? But it is a window on the media’s biases in self defense shootings.        


Rob- This is another example where thinking about the event ahead of time helps us make good decisions when we don’t have time to think.




911 Operator Tells Grandmother to Disarm.
“She kept saying; ‘Put the gun down! Put the gun down! And I said ‘I’ll put the gun down when I see the police!’“ Those were the words of an 80-year-old convalescing grandmother facing several home-invaders. She was not squawking at the criminals, but at a 911 operator, who was ordering her to disarm.   


N.J. Logan was upstairs in her Tampa Bay area home recovering from hip replacement surgery when she heard a door being kicked in. The woman was alone in the house: her husband was out playing bridge with friends.  “I don’t know what was going on in my mind. Honestly all I wanted was my gun,” Logan said. Once it was in hand, the 6 million dollar gal advanced on the enemy. “I was probably running down the stairs with my new hip, so to speak.” All the while threatening – promising –  to shoot the bad guys.   

Outmatched, the burglars retreated, and Logan dialed 911. The operator ordered Logan to put down her gun, which she colorfully declined to do until it was safe. Police arrived to find a broken glass door and a slashed screen and no suspects. Holmes Beach Police Chief William Tokajer agreed that with the increasing amount of home-invasions in the area, it was good Logan kept a gun in her home.

What the police haven’t answered is why the 911 operator ordered the homeowner to disarm herself. We will remind our listeners of the advisability of being armed, especially if crooks are known to be in the area. The 911 operator was not a sworn officer, and way out of line with her orders. That doesn’t mean a victim should completely ignore a operator, they can serve as an essential link between the homeowner and the arriving police. We would remind the operator it’s the victim’s sole duty to remain alive until the police arrive – and the best way to do that is with their gun.

Paul-  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Six_Million_Dollar_Man

Rob- Have you thought about what you will do if you call the police and they arrive.


From The City of Peace

And finally, comes a story from The City of Peace(™) – aka: Chicago.  In the sleepy Chicagoland suburb of Buffalo Grove, two masked men suddenly smashed down a front door. They came in armed with a large hunting knife, and stabbed the homeowner multiple times.  Three others were also stabbed in the melee, and the attackers even stooped to knifing the family’s German Shepherd.    


The attacked stopped when the homeowner was able to break free and grab his gun. He opened fire, driving the attackers away. Police later captured three suspects with a large bloodstained knife. In spite of that rather large, bloody clue, no charges have been filed as of the time of this report. The wounded home-owner was hospitalized, the other three were treated and released, and the Shep will thankfully survive it’s wounds.


Police have not suggested a motive for the attack, but have suggested it was not a random crime. It does seem very likely that four people — and a German Shepherd — would have been hacked to death but for the proper use of a firearm. A gun in anti-gun Chicagoland.    


We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.




6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Text message #1


Don’t forget to mention wolves when talking about wild animals, coyotes also. They are hard on pets, just lost our shelty dog. She is missed! This track was at the end of our driveway. I may have small hands but that is huge.


Email # 1


I heard you mention last night that you were considering a Viridian laser for your carry gun.


I’ve been carrying a Viridian C5L on my carry piece (Steyr C9-A1) for several years now.  I really like it – It’s very compact , the tac light is surprisingly bright, and the filter they put on the light spreads it out horizontally very evenly, so you get a wide fan-shaped beam that doesn’t waste light on the ceiling and floor.  The green laser makes it just too easy to shoot in the dark – I took it out to the local outdoor range after dusk one day, and promptly went home after 2 magazines because it was just no fun without the challenge.  During the day it’s much more visible than a red laser, but still hard to see in direct sunlight, so I turn it to the strobe function to flash the laser so it’s more visible.  The light can be programmed to any combination of solid or flashing strobe or laser, which is a neat feature, though I find the strobing light to be disorienting to the shooter, though presumably more so to the target.


One thing to definitely look into is Viridian’s ECR function – It’s basically a magnetic switch, so if you activate your laser and holster, it turns off the laser, but it automatically re-activates when you draw.  I love this feature, though because of my exotic choice of carry gun, I had to modify an existing kydex holster with a magnet and some J-B Weld to use it.


The only drawback I can see is that it’s much harder to get holsters for guns with lights and lasers, and it does add a not-insignificant amount of weight, so my marginally acceptable gun belt is a bit overtaxed.


Just thought I’d share my $0.02.


-Jake from Iowa


Email #2


Hello, brethren and sisters of the gun. I’ve recently found your podcast
and have been binging though the backlog. Great stuff.

I live in the Memphis Tennessee metro area. As you likely know, Memphis
is consistently at the top of cities with the highest violent crime
Lists.  Nothing to be proud of, but hey – at least we have fantastic BBQ.
However, I’ve heard this is now a recipe free zone so I can’t share our
secrets with you

I’m writing about a news story you reported on in Episode 381. You spoke
of TN Bill SB1736, the TN anti-gun free zone law that went into effect
in July. Unfortunately, the fantastic version you discussed was amended
significantly before it was passed.

As originally proposed, the bill can be summarized as “if a property
owner posts, and a person who could otherwise carry is harmed as a
result of being prohibited from carrying, that person can take legal
action against the property owner.” It was an extremely clear bill that
stood very strongly in support of our 2A rights.

The bill was amended and gutted before signing. The entirety of the bill
was thrown out and replaced with a single clumsy paragraph that doesn’t
come close to meeting the intent of the original bill.

As I understand the final signed bill, it says “If a property owner can
legally post, and chooses not to post, they are immune from legal claims
resulting from not creating a gun free zone”.  Hopefully, the amended
bill will incentivize more businesses to not post, but it does not
explicitly protect us from having our 2nd amendment rights chilled.

For reference, the original proposed bill:

The amended bill that was signed:

Lastly, in Tennessee if a business in Tennessee posts according to
specific signage requirements, that sign carries the force of law.
Violation is a misdemeanor with a $500 fine, and you will lose your
carry permit. However, the business has to post signage that meets very
specific requirements regarding size, location, and text. Last I looked
at Waffle House the posting did not comply. However, just for you, next
week I will make the sacrifice and venture into a couple houses of bacon
and syrup to see how they currently post.

Keep up the great podcast, and thanks for the entertainment and



Rachel-Thank you, Brian. In our news segment we covered a bill proposal in Texas that is actually based on the original TN bill. Here’s hoping it doesn’t get watered down….
Rob- they changed the “rules of the house” for our local waffle house, and Rachel, they have bacon.


John – I wish all states had uniform signage!

Email #3


Listening to episode 384, and the subject of a coyote encounter came up.
Do not forget they are a predator, and while a single animal may shy from human contact, a pack is a force multiplier, to our disadvantage.
Keep your heads up, eyes & ears open so they don’t get the drop on you.

Regards, The Armoured Porcupine
Rob- Thank you, Mr. P.


Email #4


With respect to my email from below, you asked me to get back to you regarding why I carry FMJ or LRN instead of hollow points.  I was hoping to generate some discussion from the panel.  But since you asked, I get that from some of the other podcasts out there, particularly the one whose dad was a famous sports writer. You can edit out the name if you want, but I believe I have heard Tom Gresham say to use FMJ or LRN for its, yes Rob, penetrating ability.  Maybe not for coyotes, but for bigger predators such as bear and just plain mean critters such a feral hogs.

Any more thoughts?




Rachel-As Massad Ayoob would say, can you articulate? Research and prepare for your most likely threats.

RACHEL, can you look at the news story about west-virginia?

????? what story? Who wrote that?

John –


Email #5


First I wanted to thank you all for the great podcast, and the time you put into it. It’s probably the best out there covering the pro 2A fight.


I lean toward the libertarian/constitutional parties, and i’m a one issue voter. I actually changed from independent to republican this year hoping Paul could make a run at it, but he was out before we even voted in PA so I went with Cruz.


Now here we are, Trump, Johnson, or the devil/Clinton. I hate Trump, he acts like a spoiled little kid and I don’t think the believes in anything. With the supreme court hanging in the balance I was ready to vote for him…I think…maybe.


I hope I’m wrong but if you look at the electoral college map I don’t think Trump has any chance of winning. Clinton is going to win the swing states and the election. We will loose the supreme court and more of our rights.


Best case for me would be Johnson can get in the debates and pull another 15% from each side. Not much chance of the happening either though.


The whole system is corrupt to the core, and there’s simply not enough of us that actually care.


If we can’t change the system maybe we should change our focus to finding a way to get out of the system.




Rachel-something that has helped encourage me is to be involved at the local level. While I don’t think I can have much impact on a national level, I KNOW I can change things locally. I network with others, focus on fights that will give me the most payoff for my investment, and mostly ignore the rest. I’m OK with the fact that I can’t change the national system overnight. And I know, if it is going to be changed, it won’t be because one leader comes along to change it. It will be because enough small groups of local activists created change in their communities.


Rob- Liberty lovers need to send Rachel Bacon and chocolate so she stays active.


Be careful with the polls.  No one knows how to predict this race.  We’ve seen record high voter turnout for republican candidates.  We’ve seen record low voter turn out from Democrat voters.  


Rob-  The pollsters don’t know how to extrapolate their small sample to the much larger election.


John – The NRA has started running anti-Hillary ads here in NC.



Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- I wrote about liberal bigotry making it acceptable to threaten gun owners.  I also wrote an article showing how you can save children’s lives in your neighborhood.  It takes five minutes a day for one week.  I can’t do it, but you can.  My articles are up at Clash Daily, at Ammoland and at my blog, slow facts dot wordpress dot com.


John, tell us what’s new at your blog “Only guns and money”


John- I want to remember a champion of the Second Amendment who passed away on Wednesday. Patriot, founder of the Three % movement, and blogger Mike Vanderboegh died after a long bout with cancer. Mike is best remembered for his role in exposing the Obama Administration’s malfeasance in Operation Fast and Furious. While no one ever was charged with a crime – though they should have been – Attorney General Eric Holder was found in Contempt of Congress. While Mike could be cantankerous to say the least, he was always pleasant to me and wanted to talk more about his family than anything else. Mike leaves behind his wife Rosey and children Matt, Hannah, and Zoe. Mike was 64.


Rob- Mike loved to tell a story.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.


We would like to thank Charlie Foxtrot for writing up show notes for us. Even though you don’t hear him on the air he is certainly part of what you do hear. Look at his blog at not one more gun law dot blogspot dot com


Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank (Bob Mayne) for joining us today.  (Rob won’t be with us next week.) So for Charlie Foxtrot, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, and Rob,


(Paul, stop talking now)

Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Rachel: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.


Episode 385 – While the Cats Away

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/385.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment:

2- News Segment:

3- Interview Segment 1: Joseph LaJoy

4- Interview Segment 2: Joseph LaJoy Pt 2

5- Interview Dr. John Edeen of GRGO.us

6- DGU Segment: 

7- Email and Show Close:

1- Introduction


Rob- Welcome to the polite society podcast sponsored by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Friday, August 5th, 2016.  I’m Rob Morse.

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty, and on tonight’s show we will talk with Joseph LaJoy about gunsmithing and state department ITAR regulations.

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll talk with Dr. John Edeen about protecting our hospitals from criminals and crazies.

Cheryl: I’m guest host, Cheryl Todd, and we have news and commentary about more freedom coming to Texas.

Gary: In one of our defensive gun use stories, a young woman was robbed and held with a gun to her head.  She fought back and won.. Because she had a gun and knew how to use it. .. so climb aboard.

Cheryl: strap in

John : and hang on!

Rob: episode 385 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)

Rob: Paul, Susan and Rachel are at a Kathy Jackson training class today, So John, what have you been doing about self-defense this week?


John – Other than trying to stay armed where allowed, not too much. I usually spend at least two days a week working in a hospital where guns are forbidden and the security force is unarmed. That makes it hard. I also had to spend two days at a company conference which was interesting but certainly not gun related. Speaking of conferences, I have made my hotel and plane reservations for GRPC.


I did pick up a new set of reloading dies for when I finally get my bench set up. Now if I only had a basement set up like our own Charlie Foxtrot I’d be in reloading and gunsmithing heaven!



Cheryl Todd- .

Rob- I carried every day.  I made flight and hotel reservations for the gun rights policy conference in Tampa.  I was listening to some training podcasts and I was surprised at how little we can learn at one time.



Gary- MAG 40 in June 2017. Please email Susan@politicsandguns.com for class info and to reserve seats.  We will be back with news about repealing gun control in Texas after this break.



2- News 1


Gary- Texas Campus Carry

Congratulations to the state of Texas, to it’s citizens and college students. Campus carry of a handgun is now legal in the Lone Star State.  And the right to self-defense is recognized in some of the state’s most unlikely institutions as of August 1st.  While there are still some restricted areas where concealed carry is not allowed, such as sports arenas and chemical laboratories. The potential that a criminal may choose an armed (quote) “victim” will likely curb the number of violent encounters on campus. As author and economist Dr. John Lott has demonstrated, more guns really do equal less crime.


Licensed concealed carry is now allowed in campus parking lots, parking garages, outdoor walkways, and inside school buildings. Universities may designate certain areas as Gun Free Zones, so watch for the 306 signs.  This new legislation applies to 4 year colleges.  It will apply to two year junior colleges in September of next year.


Rob- Some of the college administrators and faculty tried to be clever.  They tried to make gun-free zones out of some of the places students were required to go.  The Texas Attorney General said their restrictions violate the law.  Some of the academics are flush with their display of anti- gun bigotry and values signaling.  


John – Anti’s were making a big deal over the fact that it started on the anniversary of the UT Belltower Shooting in 1966. What they forgot to say, it was students with their deer rifles who provided suppressing fire for the cops so they could get up in the tower to kill the sniper.


Cheryl- rape rate should fall.



John- Someone messed with Texas..and got sued

Still in Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton sued the Austin municipal government for posting signs against open carry.  Most of the anti-rights bigots have an attitude of catch me if you can, but this suit has teeth in the form of daily fines that increase rapidly.


The lawsuit claims Austin illegally posted city hall.  The city says that city hall is a court building.. Without a courtroom.  The Attorney General’s couldn’t find  a court or office utilized by a government court within the city hall building.  The city faces fines of $1,000-$1,500 per day for the first offence, and 10 thousand a day for repeat violations.


Rob- Well that should get their attention.. And the attention of the Austin taxpayers who are being abused.

Cheryl -Missouri Constitutional Carry

In other state’s news Missouri’s Governor Jay Nixon vetoed the bill that passed both the state house and senate which would allow Missourians to conceal carry a firearm without a state issued permit. Opponents of the bill, including some from within the pro-gun community, say that concealed weapons should be carried by trained and qualified citizens. At the time of the Democrat governor’s veto, Republican lawmakers vowed to override the veto in September. It should be noted that Missouri already has allowances for the open carry of firearms without a permit. If you live in the state of Missouri, contact your representatives and state senators to let them know how you feel about this legislation and the possible upcoming veto override vote.

Do criminals follow any gun laws?  

John – CF made the point that many politicians in MO brag on their NRA ratings.

Cheryl – solving a problem that doesn’t exist


Rob- ATF Caught with illegal firearm purchase records

According to the US Government Accountability Office (GAO for short), the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has once again violated regulations by maintaining records of sales of multiple firearms. FFLs are required by statute to report to ATF the sale of two or more handguns to the same purchaser within five consecutive business days. The ATF is supposed to keep these records for two years after which they are required to remove any identifying customer data if the firearms have not been used during the commission of a crime. This is not the first time that the government has failed to properly destroy these records. The GAO reported the same issue in 1996, the 2016 report shows that the ATF is at least in part placing the blame on the computer database system that they use. A majority of the found records are from FFL dealers that are no longer in business. According to the GAO, firearms dealers can elect to voluntarily provide these records rather than have the ATF contact them for individual firearm tracking.


There is a congressional mandate that requires that approved purchaser information is to be destroyed within twenty-four hours. This has been included in the appropriations bills funding the Department of Justice to prevent over reaches by the ATF and the FBI. But once again, the rules do not apply to the rule makers.


Cheryl- You can be sued into bankruptcy for a small violation, say of the patient protection act.  My personal data has been stolen from government servers. And each time this happens, a government official faces no penalties for misconduct.  When has a government official lost their job and their pension?  We have smart listeners, let us know if you find the examples I missed.


Gary- Chicago shows that Failing Cities are Dangerous

Last month was the “deadliest July in 10 years” for heavily gun-controlled Chicago: Sixty-five individuals were shot and killed.  That isn’t an all time record, but it matches the murder rate set in July of 2006.  It looks like 2016 will be far deadlier than 2015.


Police Superintendent Eddie Johnson tried to abate the media criticism from the July death numbers by pointing out that they are at least better than the numbers for June, “when 72 homicides were reported.”


Comments? Rob

John – no gang suppression.


John- The Chicago Tribune reported a total of 2,395 shooting victims so far in 2016.  We see this violence in spite of the city’s bigoted “assault weapons” ban, their “violence tax,” their strict rules on acquiring handguns, and micro-management of the number of gun stores.  Gun control is a distraction from the failed economic and social policies of Chicago politicians.


Rob-  I’m angry at Chicago politicians.  The blood of innocents is real.  It isn’t a political talking point.


Rob-  Is the Chicago media helping the politicians promote their anti-gun bigotry?


Cheryl-Nevada Sheriffs Give Bloomberg the Cold Shoulder.

Most Nevada Sheriffs came out against the Bloomberg-funded background check ballot initiative. “Any bill that does not address mental health, which I believe to be the core cause of the violence we’ve had across the country, does not meet my expectations,” said Kenny Furlong, sheriff in Carson City. “Mental health has to be addressed.”


Sheriff Sharon Wehrly in Nye County said she believed the initiative chips away at Second Amendment rights.  “It merely places more restrictions on good people, will make it more difficult, and incur unnecessary costs for law-abiding citizens to manage their personal property,” she said.


A yes vote would require background checks through a licensed gun dealer when firearms change hands, except for temporary transfers of a weapon while hunting or target shooting, for immediate self-defense, and transfers between immediate family members.  For example, you and your live in girlfriend could not touch each others guns.. Even if you both have a concealed carry licenses.  You could not let your sister in law touch your firearms.  There is not temporary provision for transfer.  A licensed dealer would be allowed to charge a fee for a background check.


Rob- I’m still trying to find out if the law applies to air-rifles.  The real problem is that criminals get their guns criminally.

Gary- The real problem is that too many voters surf headlines rather than study the proposals.

John- Bloomberg dropped four million dollars to promote this initiative.  He will flood the uniformed voters with feel-good campaign promises. That said, I think we need to make sure the unions and casinos understand what will happen if this passes – the SHOT Show should and must move out of LV.


Cheryl – has anyone talked to the NSSF about the SHOT show angle?

The contact information for NSSF is here=>http://www.nssf.org/contact/


John- Gun Quotes- I could never be a conspiracy theorist.  Conspiracy theorists believe in government competence.  Miguel Gonzalez

Miguel is from Venezuela, and writes his excellent blog- Gun Free Zone.  Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guests Joseph La Joy  and Dr John Edeen.



3- Interview 1 Joseph LaJoy – http://www.lajoyprecision.com/


Twist rate

ITAR restrictions now applied to gunsmiths –

Eye dominance.  Sight focus or target focus.





Be careful  If you improve your glasses you may need to register with ITAR for improving your accuracy.   

John – Interesting on women and x-dom. What do you think about blacking out the the rear dots with a Sharpie?


4- Interview 2 7:15 John Edeen, In the Crosshairs: Are Our Hospitals Targets for Terrorist Attacks?

History of terrorism



Hospitals are already sites for workplace violence

Hospitals are frequent targets for terrorism

Rob- John, most americans think terrorism doesn’t happen since they ignored it.  Politicians abet their ignorance.

Types of attacks

John, isn’t a hospital also the ideal structure for a distributed defense?

Cheryl –

Gary – At the NRAAM, Lt Col Grossman warned about Hospital and daycare and elementary school attacks. Frightening.  

Rob- John, money talks, and some corporate risk analyst told the hospital administrator that he has to sacrifice his staff.  What allowed a hospital to deflect liability in the US?

State prohibitions for defense.

What laws need to change?  Carry or liability?  An unguarded hospital is an attractive nuisance to terrorist attacks.


5- DGUs  Our disclaimer is that you need training, and these stories are NOT training.


Rob – Michael Cargill’s Parent’s Endure Home Invasion

Our first DGU strikes far too close to home. Michael Cargill, a tireless advocate for the 2nd Amendment, talkshow host, concealed carry instructor, gun store owner and friend of this podcast, had his parents involved in a deadly home invasion. Fortunately, his family is shaken, but okay.

In the outskirts of Atlanta, four men tried to break into a rural home early in the morning. They stole a swimming pool ladder to get to a second story window. Awakened around 4, the owner found a man climbing through his master bathroom window. In that terrible situation, Cargill’s stepfather shot to defend his wife and his own life. Michael Silva, 25, was hit in the face and died on the home’s roof. He was on parole for a 2013 case and had recently been arrested for drunkenness. Silva lived less than a half mile from the burglary that cost him his life. His confederates have not been caught.  

In the past, Michael Cargill had run his parents through his handgun license course. Afterward, he helped guide them through the post shooting minefield. He made sure they had called 911 and then provided some needed advice. “I don’t want them making any statements at all and saying the wrong thing and getting themselves in trouble.” He also worked with a Texas firearms legal defense group insurance group to arrange for a Georgia attorney. Cargill did well, as his parents were taken to jail, questioned and then released without charges being filed. “The homeowner was well within the boundaries of Georgia law’s defense of habitation statute,” according to a police spokesman.  Even though his parents were clearly the victims, their house was “very thoroughly” searched by police, a second traumatic violation of their home.

We at the Polite Society Podcast wish Michael Cargill’s parents all the best. “They’re really broken up by this…having to stop someone and take someone’s life,” Cargill said. “It changes you.” The changes that perhaps allowed his parents to survive had started years earlier when Cargill’s grandmother was robbed and raped on a college campus. “From that point on, I decided I wanted to make sure that every female and everyone in their family had the tools they needed to protect themselves to stop those threats,” Cargill said. “We did not want to become victims anymore.  And I’m so glad today justifies what I did back then.  Because my parents had the tools they needed to protect themselves and stop that threat.”


Michael Cargill’s talk show discussion about the shooting can be found here in the shownotes. It’s highly recommended.  


Gary –


Gary – CCW Carrier Helps Officer

An Ohio citizen “Backed the Blue” in a very direct way, using his concealed carry pistol. Last year, Corporal Michael Wheeler of the Mount Vernon Police Department was attacked by a crystal meth addict. The man knocked the police officer onto his back and pinned him to the ground. The perp was about to get to Wheeler’s duty weapon when Dylan DeBoard interveined. The concealed weapon permit holder leveled his gun at the criminal, who stopped his attacks and put his hands up. Wheeler then flipped his attacker and put him in cuffs.    


This week, DeBoard was honored by Mount Vernon with their Citizen’s Award of Valor. Corporal Wheeler was there to present the award. “Every time I see him I let him know how much I appreciate what he did,” the officer said. “I wish a lot more of society would do what he did. There were people standing around, but they were just watching. I kept wondering why people didn’t do anything.”

We can only echo Corporal Wheeler’s words – all of them. Well done, Mr DeBoard. Well done, indeed.  


Rob- Get involved.


John – Woman Defends Her Life and the Life of Her Unborn Child
A Birmingham, Alabama woman was forced to fight for her life — and the life of her unborn child. The five-month pregnant woman awoke to the sounds of an air conditioner being ripped from a window. She grabbed her gun, and in her own words, “I walked out of the door and I saw them, the guy in the hallway … he was kind of close to me so I shot and he fell. And from that point, I went and turned on the lights and I called the police.”  Police transported the criminal to the hospital. He is expected to survive.

Marquita Turner says she’s not scared, but she will be moving. This is the fourth time her home has been burglarized in the seven months she’s lived there. “You have to protect yourself. Without a doubt. Take matters into your own hands. Get some type of protection. Don’t take anything for granted. You got to protect you and your child. Be strong. If it comes down to that, then that’s what you have to do. Don’t be scared,” Turner said. Her protection took the form of a pink Taurus Millennium 9. “This was my first time pointing and shooting. I never been to a gun range. I never went to target practice or anything. I was just, at the time, protecting myself.”


This brave mother-to-be certainly protected herself. As well as the life she was carrying. However, we are delighted to know she will be moving.


Gary –

Rob- Please get training.  Also get your concealed carry permit so you carry every place, and all the time.

John – I think suppressed firearms making training for newbies much easier.

Cheryl – I am afraid that her admitting to not being trained could have opened her to civil legal action.  u


Cheryl – It’s a Miracle!
A woman at a Circle-K suddenly found herself with a gun pointed at her head. A man had grabbed the 23-year-old victim at about 1 am in the Phoenix, Arizona area gas station. However, the robbery didn’t go as he planned. Witnesses saw the woman, still with a gun to her skull, pull her handgun from a hip holster and shoot the attacker. Frank Taylor, 27, died from the single gunshot. The victim escaped to call 911 from her home, saying she was in fear for her life. Police found that evidence from the scene supported her and the witnesses’ descriptions of an armed assault and robbery. In Constitutional Carry Arizona, she was a legal carrier. As a matter of course, the shooting will be given to the Maricopa County Attorney’s Office to determine if charges will be filed. However, police believe this is a clear case of self-defense and no charges are likely.


By the way, the victim’s name was Carol Miracle. Yes, Shannon, this self-defense use of a handgun was a miracle, just not the way you expected it.


Rob – Darwin is Waiting at a Gun Store
Sometimes you just have to ask: Just what the hell were you thinking, man? Two future Darwin Award nominees decided to rob a gun store. — And very predictably, got shot at for their troubles.  

The two feckless criminals went to rob Jim’s Gun Store in North Carolina late in the afternoon. A gun store employee and customer noticed the undynamic duo sculking around the carport wearing white masks. That won’t attract attention, huh? The employee tried to lock the store’s doors, but the two got past him after a struggle. As you would expect of someone in a gunstore, the employee had his pants on, and therefore his gun on, and he shot at the robbers.

The gunplay apparently surprised the two master thieves, and they bailed out and escaped in a green car. Deputies arrived to wrap the scene in festively colored crime-scene tape. They have been unable to determine if either suspect was hit by the employee’s fire and there have been no arrests.

We know that Willie Sutton said he robbed banks because “That was where the money is”; but going where the guns are could definitely get you a ride on a mortuary slab.  


John – I’m sorry this doesn’t speak well for the intelligence of our criminals in North Carolina. Thank goodness!


John – Don’t Torque-Off the Old Gal – Who’s Got a Shotgun

We’ve got another in our Don’t Torque-Off the Old Gal series!  

Two thieves probably thought the seasoned citizen was an easy mark when they broke into her Hillsboro, Missouri home late one night. They quickly learned the error of their ways – at the muzzle of a shotgun. The 77-year-old homeowner heard a noise in the night. She went to investigate and found two intruders in her spare bedroom. Before they could get froggy, she stuffed her shotgun into their faces, prompting a panicked retreat out the bathroom window they broke into.  

The goofs left a cell phone and burglary tools behind. The police were able to recognize this as a clue, and identified a 28-year-old as a “person of interest.” However, to date, no arrests have been made.   


Neredowells should note that the shotgunner lives in a nest of feisty and capable old guys and gals. Doris Jackson, 87, said “The victim is not the only senior citizen in the neighborhood with a gun. How about a nine millimeter? I wouldn’t have a shotgun, but I have some more besides that, I’ve got some guns, you know,” boasted the prickly old gal. The sheriff’s department said they would prefer a call to 911 if an intruder is heard. They further urged victims to leave the work to the professionals, who would arrive RealSoonNow. However, the department did acknowledge that Jackson and her neighbors have their right to protect themselves. Ol’ Doris isn’t scared, she and her torqued-off neighbors are armed, and we’ll bet VERY dangerous…  

You go, grrrrls! You just don’t torque-off a shotgun grandmomma!


John – I agree with Cheryl about this. We’ve reported stories like this in the past.



Gary- We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Listener e-mail discussion


John- Email #1


Hello all,


I’ve been listening to the Polite Society Podcast, as well as a number of other gun and second amendment related podcasts for a few years now.  I have learned so much from listening to you guys, and ladies…:-)  As a matter of fact your podcast is what motivated me the most to seek professional firearms training.  


Living here in Olympia, WA., I’m only about an hour away from the Firearms Academy of Seattle (FAS).  Back in July I took their one day Concealed Carry course, and guess who the lead instructor was?  Kathy Jackson.  She was awesome!  I hope to get into their two day Defensive Handgun class before the end of this year.  My ultimate goal is to do a MAG40 next year.


Anyway to the subject, the election.  Folks this “vote your conscious” and some of your theories on how a state will vote, or relying on Congress to save us just adds up to a win for Clinton.  Is a Clinton win really what you want?  Is it?  Trump was picked as the Republican candidate.  Get over it!  Was he the best the republicans could do, heck no, but he is it this year.  One candidate will continue to harass us gun owners, and work hard to chip away at our rights primarily by appointing anti-gun judges, and the other candidate will not.  As pro 2nd amendment as you and I are there should be no doubt who to vote for.


Okay, I’m calm again…lol.  Anyway keep up the great work you all do.





Olympia Wa.


Retired USAF

NRA member

Member Armed Citizen Legal Defense Network




Gary – Listener Email #2


Hey guys, had a few questions on carry ammo. I swap out my self defense ammo once a year and that replaced ammo then becomes practice ammo.


I just finished this yearly ritual and I changed from The Remington 124 Gr +P Golden Saber “Black-Belt” loading and moved over to use Hornady’s 135Gr +P “Critical Duty” Bonded loading. To my understanding, this lround was recently adopted by the Texas Highway Patrol for use in their new Sig 320 duty pistols, and from what i read passes the FBI test through all barriers.


When looking at the box though, it is labeled right on the box “Law enforcement use only”, and when I went back and checked, and old Remington loads i was using before say “designed for Law Enforcement”. My questions are as follows….


#1) if I am in a self defense scenario, what is the group’s thoughts on my using this loading considering the labeling. I can just hear some Assistant DA telling the jury, “This guy was a wanna be cop, he even had to use the same bullets they do” or some similar nonsense. I doubt the wording on the box carry’s the force of law but it makes me think.



Danny –


#2) Why would manufacturers label their boxes in such a way?


#3) i am curious, if you guys don’t mind, what is your own round of choice for your carry weapons and what is the process you go though to determine what you round you pick?


Many thanks and keep up the good work,


Dean from Pittsburgh




Gary: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob-  I’ve been promoting an article by Laura Carno.  She wrote about protecting students in schools.  I wrote a review of Chris Bird’s book, Surviving a Mass Killer Rampage.  My articles are up at Clash Daily, at Ammoland, and blog at slow facts dot wordpress dot com.  John, tell us what’s new at your blog only guns and money


John- I just put up a post this evening before recording the podcast. It was about President Obama’s commutation of sentences for 214 “mostly non-violent” drug offenders. That would be OK if they were really non-violent. Over ¼ had convictions for firearms crimes including at least 25 felons in possession. Moreover, if you are conspiring to smuggle over 9,000 kilos of cocaine into the country, I’m wondering just how “non-violent” the process was from start to finish. A client said something to me about these commutations that made a lot of sense. Junkies will do anything to get their next fix including killing you and me. Maybe drug offenses are not so non-violent.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.


Cheryl  – If you want me to mention my guests this week on Gun Freedom Radio – I have a fun lineup: Guests:

Chris Bird – author of Surviving a Mass Killer Rampage: When Seconds Count, Police Are Still Minutes Away

Regis Giles (pronounced Jiles) – is the creator and owner of Girls Just Wanna Have Guns.com

Dave Cole –contributor to Kenn Blanchard’s Black Man With A Gun website.

-Congressman Steve Russell  of Oklahoma – also a gun manufacturer and owner of Two Rivers Arms.


We would like to thank Charlie Foxtrot for writing up show notes for us. Even though you don’t hear him on the air he is certainly part of what you do hear. Look at his blog at not one more gun law dot blogspot dot com


John: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank guests Joseph La Joy  and Dr John Edeen and Cheryl Todd.for joining us today.  So for our regular cast of Charlie Foxtrot, Gary, Rob, Rachel, Susan, and Paul,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Cheryl: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.

Episode 384 – Even MORE Listener Feedback!

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/384.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment

2- News Segment 

3- Interview Segment 1: Chris Bird

4- Interview Segment 2: Paul Carlson

5- DGU Segment:

6- Listener Feedback Segment 1:

7- Listener Feedback Segment 2:

8-Final listener feedback and Show Close:

1- Introduction


Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast sponsored by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on Friday, July 29th 2016 ….   I’m Paul Lathrop

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we talk with author Chris Bird about armed citizens stopping mass murder.. And Paul Carlson talking about guns and gear.

Rachel: I’m Rachel Malone, and we talk about the 2 extremes of carry permits, record number in the nation as a whole and none in Hawaii

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and we have even more listener feedback than last week! So Climb aboard!

Rachel: strap in

Rob: and hang on!

Paul:  episode 384 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob- I carried every day.  Dry practice.  Went to the range with my wife.  She wants to know what guns our female listeners carry.

John- John is gone this week to visit family in the great Midwest. He did, however, have dinner with Charlie Foxtrot and his wonderful wife.


Rachel- several great training sessions….then today. Horrible range day. Not much I could do but come home and eat bacon.

Rob-  If you want to hear god laugh, tell him your plans.


Paul/Susan – Final preparations for the Cornered cat classes. Bought what felt like a ton of ammo. Have to go to court on Monday.


Asking for help with writing news stories, also MAG 40 next year and asking what people would like to see as trainers come up to the Sioux Falls area next year.


2- News 1-


Carry Permits Hit All-Time High


Dr. John Lott and the Crime Prevention Research Center released a new study this week on CCW numbers. He now estimates that the number of carry permits issued nationwide exceed 14.5 million. The number increases by 1.73 million in the past year alone. It is estimated that 6.06% of the adult US population now has a carry permit.

Just as President Obama has been credited with being the number one gun salesman, he should also be credited with encouraging people to get their CCW – though he might dispute that. Since 2007, permits have increased a whopping 215%. Florida, Pennsylvania and Texas lead the nation with over 1 million permits issued in each state. Indiana and Paul’s own South Dakota have the highest percentage of adult population with a CCW at over 15%.


Now For Some Bad News


Not all states are participating in the growth of carry permits. An extreme example is Hawaii. A story this week noted that not one person on the big island of Hawaii had been issued a permit since 2006. All 66 applicants were turned down by  Hawaii Police Department Chief Harry Kubojiri. This includes 12 appeals that were denied. With the 9th Circuit ruling en banc in the Peruta case that there was no Second Amendment right to a carry permit, this is unlikely to change any time soon. Hawaiians are also prohibited from having switchblades and stun guns. While Hawaii is a beautiful state and tourists love it, we at PSP cannot recommend a Hawaiian holiday given this state of affairs. It’s just not safe.


Comment – With the Supreme Court ruling that stun guns were covered by the Second Amendment in a Massachusetts case, the ban on stun guns might change.


Rob- I blame our politicians.. Particularly our so called conservatives.

Rachel-failure to uphold gun rights = passive support of gun control.

Gary-Electing a politician doesn’t mean your activism is over. Stay on these politicians to get them to stick to why you elected them.


Settlement reached in Taurus lawsuit


Guns.com is reporting that a settlement has been reached in the lawsuit agains Taurus where the drop safety of several models of their handguns did not properly work when the gun was dropped. According to the article owners of the models covered have the option of getting their handguns repaired by Taurus and an extended lifetime warranty, or a one time payment for their firearm of $200.


Paul- that’s about $100 more than the guns are worth!


What we are facing this fall


In another Guns.com article it is pointed out that in Maine over 2.3 million dollars has been raised for an expanded background initiative, question 3. Most of this money is coming from big name big dollar donors such as everytown’s Bloomberg and author Stephen King. This compares to the NRA raising just over 40 thousand dollars to oppose the initiative. You heard that right forty thousand.  That’s a 57 to 1 ratio. Now more than ever we need to be talking to friends and neighbors. We need to have MASSIVE turnouts at the polls this fall.


This is how we win

A Detroit-area gun rights advocacy group will give free shooting lesson to 500 women. Our friend and firearms instructor Rick Ector runs the group Legally Armed in Detroit.  His event is scheduled July 31.  Rick says the free training includes a safety briefing, use of a firearm, ammunition and some range time with an instructor. No prior firearms training or experience is required.


The event started several years ago with 50 women attending a class.  Last year the group grew to 300 women.  He expects 500 this Sunday.


Rob- Thank you, Rick Ector.


Gun Quotes-  Gun owners are the unorganized truth fighting an organized lie of gun control.  Author is unknown.

Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guests Chris Bird and Paul Carlson.



3- Interview 1 – Chris Bird  Surviving a Mass Killer Rampage


4- Interview 2 – Paul Carlson’s new magazine spacer and base plate for Smith and Wesson M&P shield. Plan-B


5- DGUs


Gotta Catch ‘Em All

Meanwhile in the 21st Century, a bunch of Millennials were in a park at 4 in the morning, using their cellphones to capture a non-existent fish in the Las Vegas desert — when reality poked-up its ugly head. Two men in a SUV weren’t playing when they threatened the Pokemon gamers with a gun and demanded all their stuff. Fortunately, one of the players had a toehold in the real world — and a licensed concealed carry weapon.


Shot were exchanged, and the armed robber was hit. One of the Pokemon party was shot in the stomach; it’s not known if it was the CCW holder. The robber was arrested at a local hospital along with his underage driver. Thankfully, neither man’s wound is considered to be life-threatening. And no Pokemon pocket monsters were harmed.

Admittedly, we’re having a bit of fun with the Pokemon GO crowd (no shame, after all, the writer was a D&D geek way back in the day.) However, this story does have a significant lesson for us all: walking around with your head in a smartphone is not smart. There’s a growing number of stories of Pokemon players finding themselves robbed, injured, or even waist deep in mud when engrossed in the game. And there’s the viral youtube videos of a woman falling into a fountain while on the phone and texters having their phones ripped from their hands. The real world has a distressing tendency to intrude into the virtual one. Everyone absorbed in a phone call, texting, emailing or gaming are easy marks for the very real monsters of this world.  


Situational awareness, people; git some. There’s an app for that.  

Rob- Designated person left in reality.


Girl Wins Against Three Men – With Her Dad’s Rifle

Three men attacked a 13-year-old girl, and she won, through the use of her father’s rifle. Two young North Carolina sisters were home alone when there was loud banging on the front door. The two girls peeked outside and saw three strange men on the porch. Frightened, the elder sister grabbed her father’s rifle and was ready when the three broke down the back door. The 13-year-old heroine leveled the rifle at the attackers, and they beat a hasty retreat, all without harming anyone.  

No arrest have been made. Deputies are investigating ties to other unsolved county break-ins. The local sheriff believes the girls had been taught to react as they did, although in the media’s write-up he seems to indicate that retreat would have been the preferred option. We’d counter with the observation that meeting the threat as soon as possible, seizing the initiative while the attackers are still disorganized, can be the most effective and safest option. Our listeners should closely study their state’s laws to understand what they are legally obligated to do in these situation. And our listeners should be pressing their legislators to put rational Castle Doctrines in place so the law doesn’t continue to victimize the victims.   

There’s no way to diminish this young lady’s accomplishments; she saved her sister and herself through the proper use of a firearm, all without firing a shot. Well done, lass, well done, indeed.  


You listening Shannon?  That’s Grrrrrl Power!


Knock, Knock; You’re Dead

A Booneville, Kentucky man answered a knock on his door at 5 am – and not surprisingly, found trouble on his doorstep. A woman was standing there — along with an accomplice — with a gun. “Had his pistol out, looked like a six-inch barrel on it.” However, after being robbed several years ago at gunpoint, the homeowner had carried his own pistol to the door. “I had my pistol in my hand, up and four shots. He fell to the ground and never moved.”

Charles Harris, 42, also of Booneville, died on the porch. His bait, Linda Peters, 36, was wounded. She was driven to the hospital by the getaway driver, where the pair was arrested for first-degree robbery. Peter’s arm wound is not considered to be serious.

Opening the door at 5 am is a gold-plated invitation to trouble. There’s nothing wrong with speaking through the door and calling the authorities for the unknown person on the porch. If you don’t know them, be it utility worker, stranded traveller, or cop without a warrant — you DON’T open the door.


Paul – accessory to murder


Go Down, or You’re Dead.

A Brandenburg, Kentucky couple returned to find their home had been burglarized. Ron Sheffield drew his pistol and entered his house to investigate. Inside, he was confronted by a machete wielding intruder. The home security system recorded Sheffield ordering Mark Jones, 29, to “Go down, or you’re dead.” Outgunned, Jones compiled, and Sheffield held him at gunpoint until police arrived.  


The surveillance system shows the armed Jones rambling throughout the house, taking a knife, crossbow and four antique pistols. The camera also captured Jones throwing the knife at the family dog and finally shooting it with a stolen pistol when it would not stop barking.

Jones was charged with burglary, theft by unlawful taking, receiving stolen property and animal cruelty. Police found stolen property from another burglary stashed in a trailer Jones had also stolen. Despite the violent burglary that included shots fired, and all his other crimes, Jones was quickly released on only a thousand dollars bail. Sheffield and his wife were understandably traumatized by the violation of their home; their loss of security wasn’t helped by the very lax treatment of the violent, career criminal. Unfortunately, this leniency seems to be the norm nearly everywhere now.  

We’ve got several things to discuss about this situation: the first being Sheffield’s dangerous decision to enter his house while a burglar lurked inside. The second is the government’s dangerous decision to coddle the criminals .  Guys?  


Paul – Unless there is a family member in the house I can’t immediately think of a reason to try to clear your house.

Rob- It is a matter of money.  Politicians can’t pay off their campaign donors and also provide criminal justice.  I’m sorry, but your safety doesn’t matter to career politicians.  You’re on your own.  Elections have consequences.


Do Not Read.  Thoughts:
Homeowner got lucky

Confronted thief in hallway – could have been very different he went through a bedroom doorway with the machete just inside

Thief moved like he was under the influence. Lucky for the homeowner.
A competent, sober thief could have easily surprised the old man.
House clearing is dangerous work – that’s the reason we pay cops the not so big bucks. Let the pros do the work they’re trained and equipped for.


We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Voice mail #1



Voice Mail #2


Text message #1


Another reminder for you all, please stop referring to the “weak” hand. Listeners need a mindset of strength for a strong defense.

It’s a support hand!

I really enjoyed Rob’s comment: “I really don’t want to go argue with bears with a handgun.”


Text Message #2


Hey everyone, thanks for the advice w my wife’s thumb. She solved the safety issue by using her non dominant thumb. Score one for a homeschooling mom. Love your dialog and the fact that you all can intelligently defend your opinions. I am so glad that you don’t agree on everything, yet are civil. Maybe others could learn something from you….. Nah


Email # 1


The topic of voting your conscience came up last week, and a lot of pressure was put on Paul and Rachel to “fall in line” behind Trump to prevent Hillary from taking the White House.


I’m going to sidestep both the question of who is actually worse, and I’ll just say that if you feel you have to hold your nose and vote Trump, why hold your nose any longer than you have to?  At this point, you can poll for Johnson, tell your friends you’re voting Johnson, campaign Johnson, and if it comes down to the wire, you can always vote Trump come election time if you feel you really must.  I truly think Johnson is a more appealing candidate than Trump to the vast majority of Americans, since most of the Trump “support” that I hear is just opposition to Hillary, and vice versa.  Come election time, Johnson may actually be polling well ahead of Trump or Clinton.


Furthermore, Johnson doesn’t have to actually “win” the election.  All he needs to do is prevent either candidate from getting more than half the electoral votes, and Congress has to select the next president from the top 3 candidates.  With half the country screaming “NEVER Hillary!” and the other half screaming “NEVER Trump!” Johnson could be a reasonable compromise candidate.  We all know a Republican controlled congress will never elect Hillary, and they’ll either choose from Trump or Johnson.



-Jake from Iowa


P.S. It’s really refreshing to hear people engaging in actual respectful conversations about politics.  You guys are living up to your name in a time when few people are.


Paul – short rant on respect. While I sometimes disagree with others on the show they are all people that I consider friends and above that they are all people that I respect. Each and every person involved with the podcast has a passion for our rights and a passion for self protection. They would not be here if I thought that they were “faking” it in any way.


Rachel-thank you to my co-hosts for the atmosphere you create


Rob- I trust the american people more than I trust our legislators.


Rachel-“Strange things have often happened here,

no stranger would it be,

if our congress met at midnight.

and elected Hillary….”

Gary –

Rob- My friends can change my mind.  Thank our listeners too for sharing their ideas.




Email #2




I hope you all are well. I was wondering if you had some insight on the following scenario.


I recently saw a video of a guy jump on a bus to flee a crime he just committed (no gun involved as far as I could tell). He’s agitated, urges the driver to get going, and after a minute or so, the bus stops and a police officer boards with gun drawn. The guy races towards the officer and begins trying to wrestle the gun away from the officer. The video stops just after a second officer arrives on the scene, so I don’t know the final outcome.  My question is, when confronted with an attacker (that has not presented a gun – yet), is it justifiable to (1) present deadly force, and then (2) use deadly force when you are in danger of losing your gun to the attacker in a struggle?  (Does that fact that you have a gun, when attacked, change the dynamics)  When I first saw this video, my thought was that the officer waited too long, and should have pulled the trigger.


Thank you very much. Love the show!



Joshua, TX


Paul – we could go into a whole show about when it is time to pull the gun, but I want to talk about the act of pulling it. If, as you mention in your email the threatening person is going for your gun that is an immediate, articulable deadly threat to your life. We are not in the same position as a sworn police officer acting in the line of duty. They are responsible for stopping an attack, we are responsible only for surviving it.


Gary –

Rob- The news media paints us as being eager to shoot.  We are not.  In general, we wait too long.  As a practical consideration, you can pull when you’re legally and morally justified, but you don’t have to press.  You can stop shooting at any time.


Email #3


I hope you all are well. Thank you for addressing my earlier question about shooting with one or two eyes open, that was a bit of a hornet’s nest. My situation sounds a lot like Paul’s, my eyes are equally strong, and I have lots of difficulty if I don’t close one eye when getting site alignment (I’m over 50 and already trying to align blurry sights). I’m going down the road of closing one eye at the last possible moment. The general feedback I’ve received is that shooting with two eyes open provides the best field of view (peripheral situational awareness), but close one eye at the last moment if you need to – keeping in mind that tunnel vision will probably occur in a real shooting, and that you most likely will be point shooting, or barely getting on the sights, in an emergency.


Regarding over 50 eyesight and out-of-focus sights, I’m practicing with my everyday prescription glasses (for nearsightedness), I don’t want to wear special glasses for training/practice shooting, if I won’t be wearing them all the time. I put speed sights on my Glock 19, and I’m trying to get use to them. Knowing that sight alignment (angular) is essential, I’m working to determine if I can get the best results from focusing on the target and align with peripheral vision, or focus (as best I can) on the front sight to get the sights aligned. Jury is still out. Getting old stinks.


I am registered for Ben Branam’s Beyond Concealed Carry and Trauma Care class August 13-14 in AR, and I’ve been going out to the range to practice in this 100 degree Texas weather in preparation. After 15 minutes, my Glock 19 gets a bit slippery. I was amazed at how much being uncomfortable (soaked in sweat, sweat getting in my eyes and on my glasses) negatively affected my shooting. Would you recommend grip tape (it comes in a rubberized or gritty material at the Glock Store) or something else to improve a wet grip? I’m going back to the range once a week, in the middle of the day, to continue practicing in those conditions.


Thank you very much. Love the show!



Joshua, TX


Rachel-good for you. Keep practicing in that heat. I love the stippling on my Glock.

Rob- Keep practicing and please include some dry practice so you can present slowly and quickly.  I’ve never thought my glock was slippery, and I live in Louisiana.


Email #4


To Paul and Rachel


I must disagree with your stance on last week’s podcast regarding “voting your conscience” since, in your opinions it probably won’t change the outcome in your states.  I hope I haven’t misstated your position, but that is what I heard.


A few weeks ago someone mentioned Scott Adam’s  blog (yes, the Dilbert guy).  It piqued my interest so I started reading it – which I now suggest everyone should do.  He has an interesting, and what I consider insightful, outlook on many  issues, politics included.


In a recent blog focused on the FBI’s decision suggesting not to indict Hillary (http://blog.dilbert.com/post/147045002381/the-fbi-credibility-and-government ) he pointed out “The primary goal of government is its own credibility.” Without credibility, without the consent of the governed, governments “devolve into chaos.”  I think that’s pretty much where we are at now.


Without a clear winner any election is going to result in a leader without a mandate.  Can you say hanging chad?  George W. Bush won the  contested 2000 election with 51.2% of the Electoral College vote, but with less than ½ of the popular vote. This is a recipe for chaos. How does one lead when more than half the population voted against you? To save you looking it up, the actual popular vote was 47.9% Bush, 48.4% Gore, 3.7% other (Wikipedia).


As a point of reference, Obama won with an overwhelming Electoral College vote and a 53% to 45.7% popular vote; and he then managed to push through the Affordable Care Act – something Democrats have been pushing for 40 years. Would this have happened if he’d received less than half of the popular vote? Who knows, but I’m betting more Congressmen and Senators may have actually read the bill before they voted on it if a larger proportion of their constituency voted “R”.


So, while your “conscience” vote may not change the electoral outcome, your vote will be counted, and in a country where nearly half of the electorate has been misled and deceived by promises of free stuff provided by the nanny state, your vote to support one team or the other matters, if only to give the winning team some credibility.


Sorry, this isn’t a game where you get to take your ball and just go home in a huff if you don’t like who your teammates picked as captain.



Texas expat in Virginia (a swing state)


Rachel-you didn’t misstate my position, but you may have misunderstood what I mean by “voting your conscience”…


Paul – We have had several presidents that have not won the popular vote. Also it is uncommon in other countries for there only to be 2 political parties. Most governments are made up of a coalition. By the way, that is how this nation started.

Gary – Again I’m going to say I’m sorry to Paul and Rachel for opening this can of worms. Because I am going to beg you to vote your conscience. My point was I am trying to make sure your conscience is taking into consideration the long term (Supremes).

Rob- We had many examples of voter fraud in 2012 and little prosecution under Obama’s Department of Justice.  State Secretaries of state matter. At the federal level, a blocking minority  of the Senate has let a president break the law.



Email #5




I was just listening to one of the PSP episodes and you were talking about coyotes.  Here is a story in which you might be interested:


I practice a hobby called geocaching.  For the sake of brevity, I won’t explain it in detail here.  The short explanation is that geocachers find and hide caches which are posted on the geocaching.com website.  Suffice it to say that it can involve time in the woods.  The online log of one geocacher looking for one my hides dealt with coyotes.  Here it is, edited:

   “… As I began my search I heard a noise and looked up to see three does standing about forty yards in front of me. I could tell they were nervous about something. I soon heard some noise coming from the direction they had just come from. At this point I stopped my search and watched the deer for a few minutes all the while expecting to run into another <person>. Without warning the three deer bolted as I looked in the direction they had been staring I saw what had them so spooked. Three of the largest coyotes this cacher has ever seen emerged from the brush and started heading my direction. I hope the man who hunts this land does not mind but I decided to go up and check out his tree stand for about 20 minutes while they milled around below. Once they had ventured off I climbed back down, grabbed a nice solid stick, and headed back …. I caught several glimpses of them as I made my way back but they seemed willing to give me my space, lol. … <next time> I think I will bring a partner.”


I contacted this geocacher privately and he shared with me that he conceal carries, but he decided that the coyotes were not a real threat at the time and as long as they remained so, he did not see any reason to resort to his firearm.


I’d say he made a good decision.  I will also say that this is one reason why I and others I know carry while geocaching.  


In the woods I load non-hollow points.  I bring my P95 in 9mm, concealed, because of capacity.  That is the best I can do in a handgun.  If I brought a long gun, it would be my .357 Marlin 1894C.


Keep up the great work!

Carl (again)


Email #6!


Good Day!


Are there guidelines for 5.56/.223 bullet weights and barrel twist rates? From the research I have read it seems to be best to try a sample, before buying any quantities. (Forum fodder)


My current rifle has a 1/9 twist and my understanding is it will handle 55 – 62 gr. I would like to try shooting out to 300 yards (2-7x scoped). I will test each by stages 50, 100, 150, 200 etc with each weight to ensure I am not spraying the countryside with projectiles. It would seem heavier, longer bullets would be more stable at longer ranges.


Thanks to ALL for the huge amount of work put into the podcast.

The shows keep getting better and better thru the two years I have been listening. ESPECIALLY since the “recipe for ruin” episode (or was it eggplant lasagna).😉


I had the good fortune to attend Gary’s CCW class a couple weeks back. He was talking about MAG 40 classes and compared it to drinking from a fire hose. I will say CCW would have been that for me save for the wealth of experience he brings to the class which turns the Illinois state required curriculum content dynamic and pertinent.


POGO – Pants On Gun On


Pogo –  a possum comic character in the Okefenokee Swamp, whose wise words included: “WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US.”



Take care,

Gregg Fischer



Gary –


Email #7:


Hi Paul,


This morning I was listening to podcast 383 – A TON of Listener Feedback.  It has been quite thought provoking.  One of my emails was read on this episode!  You know, one of the things that took me “over the top” to purchase a pistol with an RMR was a picture from Susan’s delicious MAG 40 breakfast spread with all of the handguns displayed on the buffet.  A couple of those pistols had red dots.  Like most decisions, I agonized over it for far too long.


Anyway, here are some thoughts on voting your principles.  That is a position I totally understand.  Most sports fans really don’t care if there is a bad actor on their favorite team as long as they are winning.  The democrats have been able to motivate various groups of voters to support them based on a single issue.  The voters ignore every other aspect of that candidate.  At the same time, Republican voters will throw a candidate under the bus for a single issue they disagree with.  Like Rob said on the podcast, unless you write yourself in as a candidate, you will have issues you disagree with.  The dems vote party first.  Is this the right thing to do?  Of course it is not.  But, how do you defeat it?  The first is to fight for representative seats in the primaries.


One principle I live by is not shooting people.  However, I will have an exception for that principle when the situation warrants.  My principles will not stop bad things from happening to me.  If a criminal attempts to hurt me, my family or coworkers, and retreat is not an option, I will fight back.  The democrats are shooting at us and we must, in my opinion, shoot back!  Retreat is not an option.


Please consider this in relation to the value of an individual vote.  Yes, your vote in South Dakota and my vote in Texas will not have an impact on who wins the state for electoral purposes.  However, there is a benefit from having a large popular vote victory for the President.  It gives that individual a mandate while in office.  I really do not think Ronald Reagan would have been as effective as he was if the opposition party did not fear the reprisals of the people because of this demonstrated show of support.  


It is obvious that the Trump movement has shaken the Bush/Rove GOP to the core.  Also, people like Ted Cruz and Mike Lee must be doing things right to some extent to be hated by the D.C. establishment on both sides of the aisle.  The establishment vilifies Trump.  The enemy of my enemy is my friend.  I was not in the #NeverTrump camp, but it was disappointing when Cruz was not able to win the nomination.  Also, I do believe Trump is doing this for patriotic reasons.  I also believe he would manage the office much like Reagan did in that he would appoint the best advisors to the Cabinet.


Clinton will finish the job of destroying America that Obama started.


All the best!




Gary –


Email #8




Would you please discuss AR lower receivers with regard to polymer vs metal and the ones that you finish drilling out, that supposedly do not require an FFL to purchase.




Rob- Your mileage may vary.  I’ve seen plastic AR lowers break.  Is there a reason you can’t buy a rifle at a store?


Email #9


Glad you and the rest of the crew like the AR.  

The Lucid is my first experience with a red dot scope.  So I can only compare it to the 3-9 power scope I have on a Browning 22.  Shooting from a bench at 25 yards, I was able to get a group in about 1 1/4″.  Since I’m not a marksman, yet, I think that’s pretty good.  For short range, I think it is an excellent scope.  Out past 50 yards, I’m not sure yet.  Maybe with some more practice that will get better.



Rob- Red dot’s let you focus on the distance.

Ring sights are a good intermediate range sight.

Aperture sights give us a visual advantage at longer range.. Even though they don’t magnify.


Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- I said The President’s children are protected by many men with guns. What is good for the Obama family is also good for you and your children. Strangely, some of the speakers at the Democrat nominating convention said your children should be left unprotected. That is beyond wrong.  That is evil.


My articles are up at Clash Daily, at Ammoland and at my blog, slow facts dot wordpress dot com.


We would like to thank Charlie Foxtrot for writing up show notes for us. Even though you don’t hear him on the air he is certainly part of what you do hear. Look at his blog at not one more gun law dot blogspot dot com


Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank (Chris Bird and Paul Carlson) for joining us today.  So for Charlie Foxtrot, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Rachel: be aware,


Paul and we’ll see you down the road.

(after show close) How could we have made this episode better?


(DO NOT READ)Look at the shooters club by Bob Mayne and Ben Branam.  For $75.00 a year, $6.25 a month, you get 24/7 access to some fantastic training and audio podcasts that you can’t get anywhere else.  Subscribing from the link in our show notes helps Bob and Ben as well as helps us here at the Polite Society Podcast.


(DO NOT READ)Join your local civil rights group like the New Jersey Second Amendment Society, Arizona Citizens Defense League, Gun Owners of California, Commonwealth Second Amendment,  Connecticut Citizens Defense League, Florida Carry, Georgia Carry, Georgia Gun Owners, Grass Roots North Carolina, Illinois Carry, Maryland Shall Issue,  Michigan Gun Owners , Michigan Open Carry, and  Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners.


There are Minnesota Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance,  Nebraska Firearms Owners Association,   Citizens for a Safer New Jersey, New York State Rifle & Pistol Association,  Palmetto Concealed Carry, Open Carry Texas, Texas Firearms Freedom, Texas State Rifle Association. Tennessee Firearms Association, Virginia Citizens Defense League, Virginia Open Carry,  West Virginia Citizens Defense League, wisconsingunowners.org, and Wyoming Gun Owners.


For our Canadian listeners, and their supporters, join the Canadian Shooting Sports Association and the Canadian National Firearms Association.  If YOUR state or local organization isn’t read each episode, then send us an email and we’ll add them!


(DO NOT READ)The Polite Society download app is out on Amazon for Android and the I-phone app is in I-tunes and it is called Podcast Box.  They are located by our old name, Politics and guns.  Hot links are in our show notes.


Episode 383 – A TON of Listener Feedback

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/383.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment: 

2- News Segment:

3- Listener Feedback Segment 1

4- Listener Feedback Segment 2

5 Listener Feedback Segment 3

7- DGU Segment:

6- Show Close:

1- Introduction


Paul: Welcome to the polite society podcast sponsored by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on 21 July, 2016.   I’m Paul Lathrop

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we talk about the fatal attacks on police in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

Rachel: I’m Rachel Malone, and we talk about an armed homeowner who stopped not one, but two armed robbers who kicked in his front door.

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and we have a ton of email .. so climb aboard

Rachel: strap in

Rob: and hang on!

Paul:  episode 383 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob- I carried every day.  I also had an interesting discussion with Tatiana Whitlock.  Some of her students hesitate to defend themselves.. but these same students are absolutely committed to defend others. I didn’t understand that.. until I thought of my grandmother.  Grandma probably wouldn’t have protected herself, but she’d run over anyone who tried to hurt one of us.  Something to think about.  I spoke on Lock and Load Radio with Bill Frady.  I talked to Dan and Cheryl Todd at Gun Freedom Radio, and I released episode 22 of Self-Defense Gun Stories.  Have a new book from Chris Bird titled “Surviving a Mass Killer Rampage.”



A LOT of shooting!!!!!

  • Best of the West thousand yard steels
  • Regular practice with the guys at my range. Different mindset of competition training.
  • Oklahoma run ‘n’ gun last weekend. This year I’ve done extensive training and practice with pistol and long distance rifle, so I was very pleased that my best stages were those two. (.40 and magnification helped…..)
  • Distance competition this weekend in south Texas….I’ll get to see what my failings are so I can work on them!
  • Made travel plans for Kathy Jackson’s instructor course. Super excited!


Rob- Tap-Rack-Flip helps.  I had a qualification test where I had a malfunction, cleared it, and still made the time.

Rachel, is Best of the West the range where we’ll have the Texas Firearms Festival in October?

Gary- One of my students in my Illinois ccw class was a listener.

Rob- lists of rules- https://everyoneforgunsafety.wordpress.com/2016/04/29/firearm-safety/

Paul/Susan – T-shirts, Shooting with a fellow driver. Getting ready for Kathy Jackson classes. Was on the Politics Daily Podcast


Promo about upcoming training classes here.


2- News 1-


Yet again this week we must lead off the news talking about Police being gunned down in cold blood. This time in Louisiana. In an ambush style attack a murderer killed 3 officers and injured 3 more in Baton Rouge. This came a week and a half after another single killer murdered 5 officers in Dallas. The murderer, who hailed from Kansas City was killed in the attack by a shot from a SWAT marksman that according to CNN was at “more than 100 yards and without a clear line of sight.”


There is really too much detail to get into in a short blurb in a podcast, but we do want to point out one heartbreaking fact. One of the officers who was killed posted this to facebook a few days before he was gunned down in cold blood.


Rob- you won’t have safe neighborhoods if you shoot your police.  Bizarre position where socialists want to take your guns, they tell us that police shoot black people,  and yet only the police should have guns.




We should mention that the officer that posted that, was black. It seems that black lives don’t matter if they wear a blue uniform.

Black Lives Matter Intruder Shot by Off-Duty St. Louis County Officer

A young Black Lives Matter supporter took his rage into the home of a St. Louis County Policeman. Maddened by an apparently unrelated internet argument, the young man attacked his neighbor the cop. After demanding to be let in and being refused, Tyler Gebhard, 20, threw a 112 pound planter through the rear door and was about 10 feet inside when he met his fate. His family heard the officer shout “get down, get down, get down,” then shots. The off-duty officer shot to protect his wife, two children, and mother-in-law. Gebhard was hit twice in the chest and died in the local hospital.     


The investigation is still ongoing, but police chief Jon Belmar said “I don’t think the officer had a choice — I honestly don’t.” The situation was “a very difficult position to be in.”


Gebhard’s uncle said; “He walked over there and into a gunfight. When he got there, he was met with a gun and the guy killed him.” The uncle believes a Facebook argument about Black Lives Matter triggered his nephew to take on the nearest cop. The investigation found the deceased Facebook page full of “anti-law enforcement and anti-white” threats. “(His posts were) erratic, sporadic, and some are very threatening and menacing.” Gebhard’s Facebook account also referenced police shootings of black men and the killing of five officers in Dallas. Some arguments featured warnings of a “race war.”


A police investigators said the internet posts are “All over the place. It puts on display the type of mental and/or emotional crisis he was going through.” Gebhard’s family said the young man suffered from bipolar disorder and schizophrenia and had a history of not taking his medications.


It is a tragedy that the life of a promising young man ended in a haze of mental illness and hate. However, in these difficult times, we all must be aware of what the current environment can do to the unstable, excitable, mentally ill or those seeking personal gain.  And we must be prepared.

Stay safe out there – it’s an increasingly dangerous world.


Rob-  Gebhard didn’t walk into a gunfight.  He broke into someone’s home and advanced on the homeowner.  Gebhard committed suicide by homeowner.  I’m sorry he skipped his medication.




Rob- I went out of my way to say thank you to the deputies and patrolmen I’ve met.


Gun Quotes-  For a people who are free and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security. -Thomas Jefferson: 8th Annual Message, 1808


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back with our guest (Name).



3- Interview 1


4- Interview 2


5- DGUs


Two on One – the Resident Wins

Five adults and an infant can be thankful to be alive and unharmed after their Palm Coast, Florida home was invaded by two armed and violent men. In the words of a resident, “(T)he next thing I know my door is being kicked in and and I see a gun in my face.” Another heard demands for money.  


Darien Corbett, 21, told investigators that he tried to hold the door while he retrieved his own handgun. “I opened the door and he pointed it and I just closed my eyes and shot twice and then my gun stopped working.” Those two shots were enough. Victor James Betty, 28, dropped to the floor. His accomplice, Carl Devore, 19, fled without getting any of the money or drugs they came for. Betty died at the scene and Devore later turned himself into the police. He will likely face second-degree murder and attempted home invasion robbery charges.


The Sheriff’s office would not say if the resident will be charged. They are discussing the matter with the State Attorney’s Office to see if charges are warranted. However, under Florida’s Castle Doctrine, a resident is allowed to defend their home.  


Paul – All is well that ends well, however PLEASE never close both eyes when you have a gun in your hands.


Rob- Disparity of force.  Lethal threat, imminent risk of great bodily harm.


The Rapist Next Door
This next DGU shows the importance of being armed, the futility of restraining orders, and the sheer callousness of the authorities that would demand you rely upon that powerless piece of paper.  


Early on a Saturday night, an ex-boyfriend tried to force his way into a woman’s home.  He banged on the windows and doors and eventually kicked open a door and gained access to the home. The homeowner fired several times, and her assailant turned and ran a couple of hundred feet before collapsing. Patrick Dewayne Decker of Leitchfield, Kentucky was pronounced dead at the scene. In defending her life, the victim did not rely on a worthless restraining order, but her pistol, and put several rounds into her attacker’s chest.

Decker’s ex-girlfriend had an domestic violence order in place. However, the order was recently changed to allow Decker to live in his parent’s home, which — was next door to the woman’s house. At that time, the authorities knew that Decker had an extensive criminal record that included burglary, rape, kidnapping and assault. Incredibly, callously, the authorities permitted that violent felon to live next door to the woman the restraining order was supposedly meant to protect. In that insane scenario, his ex-girlfriend naturally feared for her life and the life of her 11-year-old son. Fortunately, she was ready when the all-too-predictable happened.

You should be also.


Paul – Is a piece of paper enough? In this case it wasn’t.

Barefootin’ to a Gun — and Safety

A quiet night alone with Netflix instantly turned into anything but for a young Boise, Idaho woman. Julie Dietz, 36, found herself jumping from her couch to her door to respond to her neighbor’s cries for help. “Because of my field, because of some of my training, I didn’t go running out there,” said Dietz, an experienced state correctional officer. She cracked open her front door to appraise the situation. The boy gasped out that he had been shot. He was in obvious distress, bleeding out from bullet wounds to the chest and hand.  


Dietz ordered the boy to drop the handgun he was cradling badly. He complied and then collapsed on the porch. A trained EMT, Dietz applied pressure to the chest wound to stem the flow of blood while calling 911. Things got infinitely more complicated as the boy’s mother and sister ran toward her house screaming; “He’s got a gun! He’s going to kill us!” The “he”, a former boyfriend of the neighbor, then emerged from their house. Comprehending the radically changed nature of the threat, Dietz ran back into her house for her own personal firearm. She could not trust the one the boy had carried.  

Pistol in hand, she directed her neighbors into her basement, as the assailant went to the his truck for an AR-15 style weapon, which he used to shoot up Dietz’s entryway. She ran barefoot through shards of glass to take up a defensive position behind a wall at the top of the staircase. With a commanding view of her shattered doorway, she waited, bleeding, gun in hand, for the assailant. However, the ex stayed by his truck with its stash of weapons and ammunition: he was waiting for the cops to arrive. The madman, the head of custodial services at the Boise VA Medical Center, took his own life after shooting a responding officer. That officer was saved by his bullet-resistant vest – as the boy was saved by Dietz’s first-aid.  


As we analyzed this situation, it became abundantly clear that this woman did everything exceedingly well. Taking advantage of her varied training, experience, and probably a double helping of intellect and iron core, she went from couch potato, to medical tech, to protector, to aggressive defender seamlessly, as the situation and threats rapidly evolved. Perhaps we could fault her for not carrying in her home and for opening the door unarmed; but her courage, decisiveness and leadership overcame the deadly challenges and allowed her to save the lives of her neighbors and herself.

In her own words: “I was ready to protect us, if necessary. I can’t imagine how much worse I would be feeling if I didn’t have my own handgun, if I would have been sitting there waiting for him to finish us off,” Dietz said. “So that’s (what) I’m very thankful for.”

We can be thankful for the lessons she provided us. Well done, Ms. Dietz, well done indeed.

Gary –

Rob- Advanced self-defense is knowing when you can safely retreat and when you need to advance and stop a threat.  It isn’t a perfect science.  It isn’t an equation.  Practice recognizing those situations.

Rachel-yes. Know yourself.


Don’t Bring an AK-47 to a Waffle House Fight

You don’t mess with a Texan’s enjoyment of his scattered, smothered, and covered hashbrowns, as a young Dallas man found out. Antione Devon Cooper, 26, decided that 2:30 am Thursday was a good time to practice some free-lance tax collecting at the local Waffle House. He brought along an AK-47 to ease the transactions. Cooper made the IRS proud, efficiently robbing the restaurant as well as several customers. He then smoothly made his way out into the parking lot.  

However, one customer, fearful that his wife would drive into the middle of that scene, followed Cooper out of the Waffle House. The customer called out to the robber, who turned and pointed the AK-47. Shots rang out, but it was the customer, with his legal CCW pistol, who made the hits. Cooper collapsed to the asphalt, and was taken by police to the hospital, where he remains on life support. The customer was not arrested.     

We can only applaud the man’s defense of his wife, and marvel at the courage it took to face an AK-47 with a pistol. His success indicates that he had some tactical skills that allowed him to even the odds successfully. We’ll also note in passing that Waffle House is an AK-47 free zone.

Guys (and gal)?  

Rob- Can you make hits at 2:30 at night with your firearm.


Attorney Shot After Invading Old Guy Couple’s Home

And finally, we have yet another in our fan favorite “Don’t Torque off the Old Guys” series.


Years ago, Charles Dickens wrote “The law is an ass.” If so, this attorney is definitely the hole.   ;^)’   Chattanooga attorney, Matthew Jack Fitzharris, 29, was charged with a host of crimes including aggravated assault against the elderly, making terroristic threats, entering an automobile or other motor vehicle with intent to commit theft or felony, and burglary, simple assault and criminal damage to property. He had a busy, busy night.  


The attorney carried something in a blanket when he invaded a sprightly old couple’s home. When Alice Hanshaw demanded the the stranger leave, he responded with “I’m not leaving your (bleeping) home.” Quite reasonably, she threatened to shoot him. “You won’t shoot me,” replied the slow-on-the-uptake Fitzharris. She responded with “My husband was a Marine and he will shoot you,” and gave Delbert Hanshaw the gun.


That motion before the court carried, and Fitzharris beat a hasty retreat, saying; “I’m sorry, I have the wrong house.” However, he soon recanted, returned, grabbed the blanketed items, and ran up the back stairs to where the Hanshaws’ niece lived. From the top of the stairs Fitzharris hurled plants and threats to “(bleep) y’all up.” Failing to climb onto the roof, the counselor ran back down the stairs, tried to hit the old guy and gal, and then ran toward the their front door.


The remarkably restrained former Marine said, “If you don’t leave, I will kill your ass.” The remarkably stupid Fitzharris replied “You don’t have any bullets.” A McLatchy into the ground proved him wrong. As all good attorneys would, Fitzharris ignored that contrary evidence and lunged at the old guy. As all good Marines would, the old guy put two rounds into Fitzharris. Just before midnight, police found the wounded lawyer sitting in his car. He was loaded (I’ll say) into an ambulance and taken to a hospital and then to jail with a cast on his arm. Fitzharris’ mouthpiece, attorney McCracken Poston (you just can’t make this (bleep) up) said that a suspected psychological problem may be at play. (Really?)

It just goes to show you that even an attorney shouldn’t torque off an old guy, especially when he’s a Marine, and even more especially when the old guy’s wife is feeding him guns and orders.  


We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Voice mail #1

Dominant eyes


Rob- Lots of tricks. Don’t let this stop you.


Listener e-mail discussion


Text message #1

Any advice on carrying and shooting w weak hand? Wife hasn’t been carrying and shooting. The safety on her Shield is too much for her to trip w her thumb. She has an sp101. But the holster is for right side.


Rob- Hmm.  Ambi safety?  A glock swap?

Rachel-shield without a safety….lots of dry fire….be very conscious of your grip & trigger

Gary –


Email # 1

My wife and I had an enlightening experience last weekend while camping. A black bear, about 300 pounds, came into our campsite at 1:15 am and was sniffing around the edge of our tent. Seeing its silhouette as it worked its way around completed the adrenaline dump.


My wife was fairly composed through the whole event and we talked about it afterward. I asked her what her plan was and she said she was trying to be as invisible  as possible. I asked what she would have done if that didn’t work and the bear got into the tent.  She thought about it and admitted that she never wanted to be completely unable to defend herself again.


After the adrenaline dump wore off we both agreed that being invisible is rather ineffective as one’s only action- for both two and four legged predators. I will tread lightly but help my wife find the right  options for her. For me though it’s pretty much pants on gun on from now on.


– Jerry


Rachel-kudos to you for your approach. Conversation, but letting her make her decision.

Gary –

Rachel-regardless of what handgun would work on a bear, that kind of wake-up experience can be valuable in making you think and prepare for other scenarios




Email #2

Howdy everyone,

Thank you for reading and commenting on Brian’s email regarding vision.  It inspired me to share my journey related to this topic.

When I was about eight years old, I was excited to shoot my first BB gun off of my grandfather’s back porch.  Since I am right handed, I shot the Red Rider right handed.  But my granddad noticed that I was craning my head over so I was able to line up the sights with my left eye.  It turns out I am left eye dominant.  So, I learned to shoot left handed.  My grandad, who was a lefty, even gave me his .22 that ejects from the bottom so I wouldn’t have brass flying in front of my face.  That rifle is one of my most cherished possessions.

About seven years ago I got into handguns.  So, I thought I had to shoot pistols left handed, too.  I purchased a pistol with ambidextrous controls for that reason (shouldn’t all pistols have them anyway?).  When I obtained my CHL, I purchased a left handed holster.  Then, I learned that I didn’t have to shoot pistols left handed.  But, when shooting right handed, I have found that a Weaver stance helps me to ensure the handgun comes up to my dominant left eye.

As was mentioned by others, I also have to deal with over 50 eyes.  Fiber optic sights have intrigued me, but I have another issue.  Being red-green color blind, I don’t know what to expect.  Let’s just say that there are times that the color red or orange blends into a green backdrop.  So, I avoid those colors whenever possible.  Wardrobe decisions are another topic!

At this point I carry stock sights.  But, I have purchased a new pistol with an RMR.  It is basically a full size version of the compact model I now carry.  

Currently I am running a 1,000 round trigger job on the new one.  I have a new Cobra OWB holster and Jason made sure it would accommodate the red dot.  It is a nice set up!  

Thank you for all that you do!

Houston, Texas


Email #3

Look forward to every show. Much as I could use yet another Gagh recipe, here’s a family recipe to satisfy you guys’ Tex-mex cravings. Created by my Houston-born-and-bred mother after my dad was stationed at Malmstrom AFB in Great Falls, Montana, back in early ’60’s. Back then, there were no Mexican restaurants – a real shock to the family. Of course,  now one can get pretty decent Tex-Mex, or a variant thereof, most anywhere. Back then, we were on our own.


Have not made it in a long time – my s.o. won’t touch beans – so am not positive of the cooking specs.


In a lasagne dish, lay corn tortillas.

Add chili – preferable “Wolf” brand   WOLF BRAND CHILI Old West Cowboy Western Vintage TV Commercial

Layer chopped onion, cheese, torts, more chili, onion, then top with cheese.

Bake till onions soften and cheese melts – maybe 30 minutes at 325?

Serves Mom, Dad, three boys, but only once – no leftovers were ever seen!


Basically, Mexican lasagne. But 55 years ago, we called it Mom’s Mexican Mess.




Email #4

Hi all,Mark

A few months ago I had asked for you opinions about getting an AR-15 or a 357 lever action rifle for home defense.  Well, I bought a NY compliant, not so scary, AR-15.  It was made by a local firearms mfg/dealer, www.specopmfg.com.  It has a Spikes Tactical lower and a Lucid red dot scope.  It shoots well and I’m glad I got it.  

Here’s a photo of it:



Keep up the good work that you do.  I enjoy listening to the show.



CF: Congratulations, Mark. NICE rifle. And I’d REALLY like to know how you like the Lucid for close to moderate distance work.  .


Email #5

Hello All,


I am contacting you yet again in a desperate attempt to avoid another recipe.


This topic is with regard to traffic stops as you had discussed in a recent episode.  One aspect of traffic stops that was not discussed is when a child or spouse regularly drives a vehicle that is registered in your name and you hold a concealed carry license.  They must be educated and reminded often regarding how to act and why.  This can be especially true when the driver does not look like the name on the registration.  For instance, my daughters do not look like a “Carl”.  An officer might be comforted (or should be) to know that he has stopped a person who has been through a background check, but if the driver in no way resembles the name on the registration, he would most likely be in a heightened state of awareness.


My daughters were also reminded to never, ever, submit to a request to search the vehicle.  If it is a direct order from the officer, then they understood that they should not resist.  They have nothing to hide, but who knows what a passenger or former owner of the vehicle might have left in there.


Also, if you allow someone to use your vehicle, be sure to remove anything firearm related.


Thanks again for the work all of you do.




As an aside, I listen to the podcast as I drive to some of my work locations, as far away as a whole 1.5 hours, which is nothing to a truck driver.   For very long drives I suggest downloading audiobooks from the local public library.  My wife and I recently made a trip to Asheville, NC and were entertained by the likes of Agatha Christie and Isaac Asimov.

Gary –



Email #6!

First off, love the show!

My question to you is about “gun control”. I have been a self defense , personal responsibility, advocate for my entire life and now believe that the battle is not at all about guns, but rather control. Yes, I realize this is a sound bite, but really what does this mean?
    I believe there are leaders and followers, leaders are a pain to work with. They always want to think, and manage their own lives. From a herd management standpoint, these mavericks need to be cut out of the herd. But how?

     Color?     No. There are thousands of independent, responsible, self managing people of color.

    Age?      No. Some of the most motivated, independent people I know are young people. Liberty is not just for the Greatest Generation.

     Education?   No.
     Income?      No.
     Rural vs urban?     No.
     Pick up truck ownership?  I don’t think so.

   But, gun ownership? Now that’s an idea!
What better way to segregate the herd?

Gun registration ?  Or herd segregation?


Email #7:



This is [name withheld] from a conversation on June 15th!  So sorry for not getting back that day!  I feel horrible!


So I texted you about the broadcast previous to June 15th where one of the other hosts had chided you a little about not being willing to vote for ‘the least evil’ candidate. ‘Sure he’s not the best, but you have to vote for Trump because the alternative is electing XX.’


Anyway, I am right there with you.  I really believe the two parties have a collusion together, otherwise, why do they both keep presenting poor candidates? Like I don’t really see Clinton as a candidate that can get elected(unless all out election rigging takes place), and so America is left with Trump.  And he is quite Liberal, and in many ways not conservative at all(except maybe in protecting big business and profits/tax writeoffs), but so many Republicans are falling in line so obediently because ‘the alternative is so horrendous.’  So we end up begging for a poor candidate and can’t really complain when he does crappy stuff.  And instead, when he does crappy stuff, we just blame it all on the other party and say ‘see, his hands were tied. they wouldn’t let him get anything passed. they wouldn’t compromise or cross the party isle. etc etc etc.’

The exact argument happened at the previous election, and I wasn’t at all thrilled with Romney, and most Conservative Americans weren’t either……But the alternative: “another term of Obama, was so HORRIBLE” that again, we were fear mongered into voting for the ‘lesser of two evils’


I didn’t, and I won’t this time.  I will vote my conscience if there is a good candidate out there (third party or whatever), or I will place NO vote for presidential candidate.


Until Americans of both parties, but especially of the conservative side, start to protest and refuse to eat the slop the party puts forward(and I fully believe that even, ‘outsider Trump’ is fully vetted and approved by the party decision makers) then we will cease to get a single GOOD candidate and will only receive the candidate most likely to move forward the party leaders’ agenda.


Again, my apologies for not getting this to you ‘in a timely manner’.   Keep up the good work you are doing!   My wife and family appreciate individuals such as yourself and the others on the PS podcast for educating, promoting and actively doing those things that our nation so desperately need!!


I am doing a little, our family (mostly my boys and I) have a YouTube channel that is a mild attempt at an alternative to modern culture entertainment crap.  We aren’t all that developed yet, but have a couple videos that have done well.  And we are learning a lot in the process.  It is the Healthy Family Variety Channel: http://youtube.com/c/HealthyFamilyVarietyChannel


Thanks again, and maybe we will get my wife into one of your courses/Events in the future!



[a listener from Texas]


Rob- Write yourself in.  I wrote about it here.  He Found the Perfect Candidate


Paul : I will once again say that if you don’t want to vote for a president I can understand that however I would urge you to PLEASE vote for a pro gun congressperson and senator.


Rob- Here are the states where votes count .. and shut up about politics for the next 40 years.






Rob- I’ve seen skewed results depending on who the poll-takers call. The difference lies in polling registered voters vs likely voters.  You can determine the polling results by choosing your sample.




Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- I wrote an article saying that the Orlando murders were a wake up call for the LGBT community.  Government won’t save us.  There were so many failures that left the victims disarmed and vulnerable.  My articles are up at Ammoland and at my blog, slow facts dot wordpress dot com.


We would like to thank Charlie Foxtrot for writing up show notes for us. Even though you don’t hear him on the air he is certainly part of what you do hear. Look at his blog at not one more gun law dot blogspot dot com


Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank (Guests) for joining us today.  So for Charlie Foxtrot, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, and Rob,

(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Rachel: be aware,


Paul and we’ll see you down the road.


(after show close) How could we have made this episode better?


(DO NOT READ)Look at the shooters club by Bob Mayne and Ben Branam.  For $75.00 a year, $6.25 a month, you get 24/7 access to some fantastic training and audio podcasts that you can’t get anywhere else.  Subscribing from the link in our show notes helps Bob and Ben as well as helps us here at the Polite Society Podcast.


(DO NOT READ)Join your local civil rights group like the New Jersey Second Amendment Society, Arizona Citizens Defense League, Gun Owners of California, Commonwealth Second Amendment,  Connecticut Citizens Defense League, Florida Carry, Georgia Carry, Georgia Gun Owners, Grass Roots North Carolina, Illinois Carry, Maryland Shall Issue,  Michigan Gun Owners , Michigan Open Carry, and  Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners.


There are Minnesota Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance,  Nebraska Firearms Owners Association,   Citizens for a Safer New Jersey, New York State Rifle & Pistol Association,  Palmetto Concealed Carry, Open Carry Texas, Texas Firearms Freedom, Texas State Rifle Association. Tennessee Firearms Association, Virginia Citizens Defense League, Virginia Open Carry,  West Virginia Citizens Defense League, wisconsingunowners.org, and Wyoming Gun Owners.


For our Canadian listeners, and their supporters, join the Canadian Shooting Sports Association and the Canadian National Firearms Association.  If YOUR state or local organization isn’t read each episode, then send us an email and we’ll add them!


(DO NOT READ)The Polite Society download app is out on Amazon for Android and the I-phone app is in I-tunes and it is called Podcast Box.  They are located by our old name, Politics and guns.  Hot links are in our show notes.


Episode 382 – Officer Down in Dallas

Full Episode Download: http://traffic.libsyn.com/politicsandguns/382.mp3

1- Open and Personal News Segment: 

2- News Segment

3- Interview Segment 1: Guest Marty Hayes from ACLDN

4- Interview Segment 2: Guest Pete from the Gunshow Loophole Tour

5- DGU Segment:

6- Email and Show Close:


1- Introduction


Paul: Welcome to the Polite Society Podcast powered by the Firearms Policy Coalition recorded on, 2016.  I’m Paul Lathrop

Rob: I’m Rob Morse and on tonight’s show we will talk about the attacks on Dallas Police.

John: I’m John Richardson, and we’ll talk with Marty Hayes of the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

Gary: I’m Gary Daugherty and we talk about a self-defense story where four robbers attacked a single person, but the victim was armed.. So climb aboard.

Rob: strap in

John : and hang on!

Paul:  episode 382 of the Polite Society Podcast starts right now.

Show intro music.


Personal news from each participant (when you are done with your segment please ask the next person what has been up with them)


Rob- Carried every day.  I’ve taken some training recently.  I wrote down my weaknesses and then dry practiced to make them better.  Last Sunday I was on the Gun Talk radio program with Tom Gresham.  Thursday, I recorded a segment with Ben Branam on his Modern Self-Defense podcast.  I put out another episode of Self-Defense Gun Stories.  Yesterday I recorded an interview with Bob Mayne on his Handgun World podcast.  I want to ask our listeners for their suggestions. Is there a flash hider that had fine slots in it and would reduce noise or direct noise away from the shooter without being called a suppressor?




John – I spent Saturday afternoon working the Grass Roots North Carolina booth at the local gun show with Barb. We talked to a number of people. I was a bit surprised that it wasn’t packed given the events in Dallas and all the talk about gun control. I also e-filed two ATF Form 1’s for permission to build a .22 and a .45 silencer. I think a lot of people are or were rushing to do this as the website kept crashing on me. I finally did it at 5am on Saturday morning when I was up answering the call of nature.






Promo about upcoming training classes here.



2- News 1


Leading our news this week is the shocking attack on Dallas Police officers.


It is with heavy hearts that we must report that an attack on Friday evening July 8th claimed the lives of 5 Dallas area law enforcement officers. While details are still a little unclear as of Sunday morning when we record this, it appears as though a single gunman took a long gun and ended the lives of the police officers who had been working to try and maintain order during a Black Lives Matter protest.


Keeping with our long standing policy of not naming mass killers on our show, we do however note that the person being named as the killer had no criminal history, and according to police appears to have acted alone.


According to published reports the killer was apparently upset over shootings in Louisiana and Minnesota where people were killed in confrontations with law enforcement. He stated during a standoff with police that his goal was to kill white people, especially white police officers.


Bristol Tennessee has seen Black Lives Matter violence as well this week. While only killing one person, the thug in this case went on a walking tour of Bristol and wounded many. On this killers Facebook page was found much racist rhetoric as well.


Our thoughts and prayers go out to the victims of these horrific assaults.


Rob- I thought it was revealing that the Dallas protesters hid behind the police once shots broke out.  Being poor and black is hard.  Most of those problems are not caused by the police.  If the cops wanted to hurt blacks, then the police would stop responding to crime in black areas.   Unfortunately we are seeing copycat attacks across the US.


John – So much of what is first reported is wrong.

Paul – It is more important than ever that you get armed and get trained

Rob- Second reports that the long gun was an SKS.

Gary –

John – I do have trouble with the use of the robot and the bomb.

Rob- I don’t.

Paul – I don’t either, the guy was saying that he had bombs “all over the place”


-Here is a side of the black community we don’t see often enough.  WHAT IF we stopped trying to get guns off the street of our large cities, and instead started licensing young men to legally carry a gun.  Maj Toure has a campaign called Black Guns Matter.   Toure is a young African American man who grew up in North Philadelphia.  He carried a gun illegally and later became an official, dues-paying NRA member and legal gun owner.


Quote “The stigma, especially in an urban environment like Philly, is if you have a gun, you’re either law enforcement or the bad guy.  What we’re trying to do is say that just because you have a gun doesn’t make you the bad guy.  But while you have your firearm, which you have the right to have, you have to be a responsible, card-carrying good guy.”  close quote


And a card-carrying good guy includes those people protecting themselves against a bad guy breaking into their home, or a bad guy shooting up a public space.  Quote, “there is no difference between a white gun culture or black gun culture.. Our aim is to try to get more people on the side of the informed gun culture” close quote.


John – Rick Ector is doing the same sort of work and training in Detroit.

Rob-  Toure isn’t the first, but it is great to hear him promote responsible gun ownership in the black community.


Gun Quotes-  Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin Luther King Jr.


Hang on everybody, we’ll be back to talk with Marty Hayes of ACLDN



3- Interview 1 Marty Hayes – Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

Firearms Academy of Seattle

4- Interview 2 Pete – Gun Show Loophole Tour



5- DGUs


CCW Carrier Shoots Knife Wielding Hostage Taker

In just a few seconds, a gas station customer had to make the most difficult decision — and shot of his life.


A man robbed an East Ridge, Tennessee Kangaroo gas station and convenience store. Along with cash and cigarettes, the thief grabbed a female employee, pressing a large knife to her neck. He dragged her into the parking lot – likely to a horrible fate. However, a sharp eyed customer had realized the store was being robbed and retrieved his firearm from the car. On the store’s front sidewalk, the robber, still holding the woman at knife point, confronted the armed citizen. In that awful scenario, the man reacted and shot several times, hitting the assailant. The career criminal died, the woman hostage was unharmed.   


East Ridge Police Captain Tim Mullinax was quick to call the citizen “lucky.” The facts certainly speak otherwise. Self-defense guru Michael Bane talks about “delivering the shot.” That is, having sufficient equipment, training and practice to make the shot that must be made. In using the gun precisely to eliminate the threat and save the woman, this citizen certainly ”delivered the shot.” It was a horrible risk, if the hostage had been injured, the citizen would have faced jail time. Despite what the Captain said, it was the woman who was lucky – that citizen put his life, liberty and finances on the line for her safety.     


Rob- I wonder if the citizen shot IPSC or USPSA.  I read that the police would have prosecuted the hero if he missed.  A policeman would have been excused if he missed.

Paul – I have trained and practiced to take that shot. I would encourage our listeners to as well.

Rob- That should get us out range.


Four Against One On the Mean Streets of Detroit
Four robbers on one victim isn’t all that unusual on the mean streets of Detroit.  However, this time it was different: the victim had brought along a friend, his conceal carry weapon. When the four thugs approached the off-duty security guard, demanded his money and then hit him on the head with a baton, he pulled his licensed concealed firearm and shot. A 21-year-old fell and his three buddies left him there on the street. The unnamed criminal remains hospitalized in serious condition.

Another win for POGO!

Rob- the security guard was walking from the bus to a friends house.  The thugs had robbed a woman earlier that hour.

Paul – I don’t know if I would have waited until being struck

John – took a bus? Think about if it had been in Illinois.


Not a Rose Garden

We never promised you a rose garden – or one that was crime free. A romantic walk through a Eugene, Oregon rose garden put a young couple in harm’s way. During their stroll, they were approached by a man asking for money. When Jason Rorex refused, the man pulled a knife. Rorex flashed a gun. Realizing he had just brought a knife to a gunfight, Adolfo Rodriguez, 29, pocketed his knife and walked away. The police were called and arrested the slow moving Rodriguez. He will possibly face armed robbery charges.   


Rorex and his date were relieved that he had his pistol that day. He doesn’t always carry, but after the recent events in Orlando, he started openly carrying.

POGO: you’re doing it right!  And Shannon – this is a DGU without a shot fired, just like the vast majority of DGUs. Yes, toots, they do happen. A lot.  


Paul – possibly face robbery

Rob- I’ll only carry if I have to go someplace dangerous.  This was the middle of the day, busy park.  Yeah, carry everywhere.


The Gun Is a Tool — You Are The Weapon
A Toledo, Ohio robbery perfectly illustrates the old maxim that a gun is just a tool – you are the weapon. While buying a drink at Circle K, Michael Keith was surprised and forced into his own car at gunpoint. Matthew Johns threatened that he would shoot his victim’s legs off if he didn’t move. Keith obviously decided that the only way to make a bad situation worse was to go with the attacker; kidnappings don’t usually end well. In Keith’s words; “I wasn’t going to die tonight.” The only way out was to resist – totally.


Keith’s opening gambit smashed Johns’ head against the car window. That worked spectacularly, and Keith forced both of them out of the car and onto the ground. During the scrum, Johns dropped his gun, which Keith quickly used to bash his opponent’s head. “I wasn’t going to do anything. I was just hitting him in the head with it since I wasn’t going to shoot him. And he tackled me up against the pole that’s over there and when I started screaming out for help.” <unquote> At that moment, Johns decided he was done with this – and ran.

 Police arrested Johns sometime later. He will be charged with aggravated robbery and felonious assault. Keith was treated for minor injuries and released.

Well done, sir! Sometimes, like our anti-gun opponents, we focus too much on the firearm. But the gun is only a tool. It is the user’s will to survive, to defend, to overcome, to win that’s important. And that will can triumph even without the use of a firearm.


Bagged an armed bad guy, without being armed, no shots fired…. Well done, indeed.

Paul – a gun can still be used as a club


Who need Medical Marijuana – It’s Colorado!

Combine an accused felon, a janitor, a robbery on a university campus (hey, that never happens!), a foot pursuit, sagging pants, takeout, a good samaritan, bushes and a choke hold and you get this confusing tale from confused Colorado.  

Kaleb Caddy, 24, stopped by an university area eatery after a Colorado Rockies <spit> game. Bringing the food back to his car, he was treated to the sight of a young man, a wallet in one hand, trying to run while hobbled by his sagging pants. Then an older man, blowing hard, staggered up and asked for help. He was chasing the man who robbed him at gunpoint on the University of Northern Colorado campus.

Caddy took up the chase after grabbing his own handgun from the trunk. Saggy Britches escaped over a fence, but still found himself under Caddy’s gun. “I told him to freeze. I pointed my firearm at him. I told him to drop the wallet and wait for the police,” Caddy said. The thief obliged, but spooked when Caddy put his gun in his pocket.  Caddy chased and tackled the thief into some bushes, and ended the short struggle with a wrestler’s choke hold he learned in high school. When the police finally arrived, they took Ronald Lee Gonzales, 24, into custody. Gonzales had been out on bail for just a week after a felony menacing arrest. The busy Gonzales was due back in court in a couple of weeks.  

While we applaud the civic mindedness of Caddy, it’s obvious that he risked an awful lot in chasing an armed criminal. The gun was later found to be a replica, but that only matters in hindsight. No lives were being endangered, so a carrier probably should try to stay out of the mess. And when Caddy captured and held the criminal… well, there are ways to do that better. Fortunately, everything came out for the best. But, before Caddy chases the next person with their pants around their ankles, we sincerely hope he gets some training.  


Paul – we are NOT the police

John – I just want to know how the guy got over the fence with sagging pants!

Rob- I know how the guy felt when you realize the robber victimized and old guy.

Gary –


We post each of our news and defensive gun use articles at Polite Society Podcast.com  Please take a minute and share them with a friend.



6- E-mail, blog notes, and show close


Voice Mail –


Email #1


Dear Polite Society,

Here’s a large multi-part email you can address over the course of multiple episodes if needed!

I am so sorry to have neglected my duties of writing in emails. I would personally like to apologize to the entire listener base for having to endure Paul’s recipe and specifically apologize to Gary. I will try to never let you down again!

I had, however, left a message for a little discussion on the Polite Society’s facebook messenger I was hoping would make the air! The massacre in Orlando led to some polarizing discussions on social media: I was wondering if the cast had any advice discerning when people are worth debating and when you should consider them a lost cause.. I lost much sleep over this.

I liked the sound of Project Blazing Sword, I certainly will be offering my services to anyone in need for free basic firearm safety training.
I agree that my time is worth something and I need to be paid for my more extensive classes like my six hour Permit to Carry.

Thanks for inviting those Geeks onto the show to ramble on about their gadgets and breaking a plethora of sound barriers, that was pretty entertaining. Special Thanks to Matt for *almost* giving me credit for lending out the gun Pat used to take 2nd place at Mag40!

I’m going to stand behind Paul on his comments towards the DGU where the armed citizen had a 1 in 15 hit ratio. I’d remind the audience that every bullet fired has a lawyer attached to it. Where did those other 14 go? Was the shooter certain of their stopping point? If he couldn’t get more than 1 out of 15 to land, I doubt that. We owe it to society to have judicious marksmanship. Know your abilities and do not exceed them when lives are at stake.

I hope everyone is taking advantage of low ammo prices and plentiful availability before the election, I sat myself down and took inventory of my reserves.
I’d like to bring attention to the #AmmoCanChallenge issued out by Paul Markel on Student of the Gun Radio. What we are supposed to do it purchase an empty 50BMG sized steel ammo can and fill it with loose training ammo before September 1st. No cardboard, plastic trays, foam, etc. I don’t want to hear people complaining if the shelves are empty around election time!

Thanks for everything y’all do. Stay safe out there; stay dangerous!


P.S. Over 3,000 of the emails thanking Gary were from me.

Rob- training ammo, or sd?




I just wanted to point out that as early as June 16 the Buckeye Firearms Association offered to help educate the LGBT on firearms and self-defense – for free.


BFA is a great organization.  In 2012 they also responded to the danger to our children by : http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/armed-teacher-training-program-provide-free-training-educators

From that article, “The program will begin by accepting 24 teachers. All expenses, including class tuition, ammunition, and lodging (which are expected to total approximately $1,000 per teacher), will be paid by Buckeye Firearms Foundation and outside donations.”



Rob- a gun range in Houston offered free training for LGBT also.





I hope you all are well. I was wondering if you had some insight on the following scenario.


When a criminal attacks a law abiding citizen, and the citizen must respond with deadly force and succeeds to stop, but not kill the criminal, does that fact that the criminal will likely seek revenge at a later time factor into the magnitude of deadly force that should be used?


I’m  guessing that legally, the potential for future harm cannot be rational for responding to a current active threat, but I struggle a little with this scenario. When I hear all the DGU’s that end with the criminal being hurt, but not killed, I wonder about the future safety of the intended victims, and was curious to hear your comments.


Thank you very much. Love the show!





Joshua, TX


Rob- You can’t use information you don’t know at the time.

John – I agree with Rob. You shoot to stop not necessarily kill.

Paul – when properly applied deadly force is well… deadly however hot all situations end up as expected

Gary –

John – I’ve been reading Nobel laureate Daniel Kahneman’s Thinking Fast and Slow.


Paul: Rob, do you have any new posts from your SlowFacts blog you want to mention?


Rob- I wrote an article thanking our listeners. I’m grateful because they know violence exists.  They studied how we are attacked and how we might respond.  Armed Americans considered how they would respond to violence if they were with family, with friends, or alone.   They visualized how they would escape or stop the threat until law enforcement arrived.  Armed Americans know murderers can be stopped.  There is a lot that everyone can learn from Armed America, but for now I’ll say thank you.  That article and more are at Ammoland and on my blog, slow facts dot wordpress dot com.




John, tell us what’s new at your blog no lawyers only guns and money


John- Since we last recorded I’ve posted a number of blog posts. There are two I’d like to point out. The first ties in with the email from Carl above. I noted that there is a new LGBTQ PAC called the Pride Fund to End Gun Violence (sic). I find it very sad that a gay-oriented organization would be so anti-self-defense and anti-self-reliance. I look at the work that that Erin Palette has done with his Operation Blazing Sword as well as the work that Pink Pistols does and then there is this. I just make you want to shake your head. The other post I would like to point out is about the blood dancing of the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence (sic). Less than 2 hours after the murders of police officers in Dallas when we really knew nothing they were blaming lax gun laws in Texas for the murders. Their commenters were also blaming, of course, the NRA and surprisingly libertarians and the Koch brothers. I find this blood dancing disgusting as I hope do all civilized people.


That and more is at only guns and money dot blogspot dot com.


Paul –


We would like to thank Charlie Foxtrot for writing up show notes for us. Even though you don’t hear him on the air he is certainly part of what you do hear. Look at his blog at not one more gun law dot blogspot dot com


Recipe choices – Asparagus Macaroni Loaf, Head cheese, Jellied Chicken, Vienna Sausage Shortcake, Pickle Stretcher Salad, or Klingon Gagh (Gawk)


Paul: That wraps up another episode of the Polite Society Podcast.  I’d like to thank (Marty Hayes from ACLDN and Pete from gunwebsites.com) for joining us today.  So for Charlie Foxtrot, Gary, John, Rachel, Susan, and Rob,


(Paul, stop talking now)


Rob: Until the next time…

Gary: stay safe,

Sue: be aware,

John: and we’ll see you down the road.


(after show close) How could we have made this episode better?


(DO NOT READ)Look at the shooters club by Bob Mayne and Ben Branam.  For $75.00 a year, $6.25 a month, you get 24/7 access to some fantastic training and audio podcasts that you can’t get anywhere else.  Subscribing from the link in our show notes helps Bob and Ben as well as helps us here at the Polite Society Podcast.


(DO NOT READ)Join your local civil rights group like the New Jersey Second Amendment Society, Arizona Citizens Defense League, Gun Owners of California, Commonwealth Second Amendment,  Connecticut Citizens Defense League, Florida Carry, Georgia Carry, Georgia Gun Owners, Grass Roots North Carolina, Illinois Carry, Maryland Shall Issue,  Michigan Gun Owners , Michigan Open Carry, and  Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners.


There are Minnesota Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance,  Nebraska Firearms Owners Association,   Citizens for a Safer New Jersey, New York State Rifle & Pistol Association,  Palmetto Concealed Carry, Open Carry Texas, Texas Firearms Freedom, Texas State Rifle Association. Tennessee Firearms Association, Virginia Citizens Defense League, Virginia Open Carry,  West Virginia Citizens Defense League, wisconsingunowners.org, and Wyoming Gun Owners.


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